Ep.70 What Nature Teaches Us About Grief

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Hello, Hello, everyone! Welcome back to another episode of reconnect with plant wisdom. It’s me, Tigrilla Gardenia.

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and this time you’re stuck with just me after a bunch of episodes, all connected to different interviews? And aren’t those amazing, or haven’t those been the most incredible interviews? I am just

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loving all of these interspecies, artists and scientists that we’re having here? Because I feel like these conversations are so important to have? I mean otherwise, how do we even know, how do we even know this is happening? How do we know how we can interact with all of these different beings in these creative ways? But that’s not here. What we’re here to talk about today.

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Today I have.

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I have a really, a little bit of a serious conversation that I want to have with you that was sparked by a recent podcast that I was listening to.

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So

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you want to kind of get yourself a nice cup of tea. You want to get yourself nice and comfortable because I feel like this is something that we really need to take a little bit of time to talk about.

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So today, this is Episode 70. And we’re going to talk about what nature teaches us about grief.

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Welcome to reconnect with plant wisdom. I’m your host, tigrila, gardenia, nature inspired mentor and leadership coach. In this podcast I share ancient and modern knowledge from biology to spirituality, about the wondrous ways in which plants can help you lead a naturally conscious life.

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Yep, grief, grief, grief.

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you know. I don’t think I really ever understood grief until probably the last few years.

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And I find that to be a beautiful thing, and I feel very privileged that I have not had to really deal with

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extreme grief. I have had things that probably merited like probably warranted me, spending some time and really going through grief, but I never gave it enough thought. I never gave it enough time. And in these particular moments of what is happening in the world, I feel like this.

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yeah, this is just an unspoken conversation. And really, mostly it gets spoken about in the context of death which I’ve talked about multiple times. If you go to reconnect with plant wisdom, you will see that I have an entire module in my course all about life and death, of what the plants have taught me about life and death.

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and I feel like in that context, there’s a lot of permission to discuss what it means to go through grief, to talk about the stages of grief, to experience grief and all those different aspects. It’s almost like it’s socially accepted to go through this.

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But grief, in my opinion, happens in so many other ways

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that

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don’t get accepted. Don’t get understood, don’t get spoken about. And so here, I want to give you a space

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to go through it and talk about it.

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Now this particular topic is something that for me has been coming up over the last few years in a number of different ways. Grief between relationships, grief between family members that have passed away, grief with great friends that have passed away, grief also for what’s happening in the world, and the entire turmoil that we see on so many different levels.

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Ecologically speaking, politically speaking, there’s just so many opportunities for the different elements of grief.

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And I I sum this all up in grief, because I think we could talk about it, as you know, anger, and we could talk about it as depression, and we could talk about it as action. We could talk about it in many different aspects, but I feel like.

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in order to be able to truly deal with it in order to be able to not just kind of swath over it, or like pass over it. I think that the concept of approaching it from the perspective of grief, and especially working with the natural world, working with plants to help us better understand grief.

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Kind, at least for me, gives it a different context, and allows me to be more.

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How should I say this

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proactive? It helps me to be more in it, and to

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go through an entire process rather than trying to limit it down if I focus on anger only or on depression. Only I feel like I’m limiting down everything that it is. So

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let me back up for a second. This whole conversation for me became a little bit more prominent when I was listening to the on being podcast with Krista, Tippitt, and she was interviewing Janine Baynis, who is the Janine Baynis

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is one of the founders of the entire, you know, biomimicry movement, and she was on on being with biomimicry. Practitioner, Azita Ardakani, Walton. I have to say that name right. It takes me a minute to say that. And they were really talking about what does nature have to teach us about healing from trauma?

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So they were looking at it from the perspective of a trauma, which, of course, is a context for everything that we’re going to talk about. So Krista asked her guests. She says I’m just going to read it because I feel like it’s a little bit.

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I want to capture it completely. I have been captured by the idea of people like Bayu, Akuma.

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Acomolafe, which, by the way, if you were a little bit like me who didn’t wasn’t 100% sure who he was. He, Bayo acomalafe, is a

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philosopher, writer, activist, and professor of psychology, and he’s the executive director of the Emergence Network. So he is. He’s definitely a figure worth going and checking out if you don’t know him. So are all of these people, Krista, Tippitt, Janine Benes, and also Azita Walton. They’re all people that are extremely interesting, anyway. So she asked the question.

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I’ve been captured by the idea of people like Bayou Akomalafe. That to change we must 1st be able to grieve.

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to change, we must 1st be able to grieve, and the question is, what can the natural world teach us about grief and its relationship to change?

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So in the particular question in the context, their answers were quite beautiful right they were talking about how grief is. You know, something that asks you to pay attention. Walton really went into the idea of that. Grief takes the shape based on the input that it arrives and what it demands. She uses this term which I really enjoyed. It demands of us to metabolize it.

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And so I see it as an energetic metabolization ahead of doing what you think you need to do next. You have to sit with the energy that’s demanding your attention.

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And she adds, this little element which I found very creative. And if you don’t metabolize well, you know what indigestion feels like. So

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and so she’s talking about grief from as a natural process of the body, to metabolize something that you put into it, something that you experience, something that comes at you. Your body physically has to metabolize whatever it is, in order to see

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what to do with those elements. In some of those cases. If you think about

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the metabolization right? If you think about metabolizing, that’s the word I’m looking for. If you’re thinking about metabolizing, that makes perfect sense right? One part of metabolizing something is to absorb it. What is it that are the lessons learned, the the memories that I keep, the things that stay with me that integrate and become building blocks for new parts of what’s happening in my body.

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And also what are the things that I expel? What are the things that I experienced I had something that came from it. They generated something, but in reality they’re not very useful anymore, and therefore I can expel them. And so, you know, metabolizing.

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and as a as a metaphor for grief is extremely powerful and quite beautiful. And so, Janine Bannius also added, she says grief is a digestive. They think about grief as a digestive enzyme, and they think about grief can actually pass briefly when you allow it to actually happen. That’s the reason why I was getting tangled with my words grief and grief, brief and grief. So she’s like, it’s always something that gets transformed. In other words, it comes in in one format.

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you process that format. And then it comes out.

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And so this really got me to thinking about how plants and ecosystems really help us understand how to deal with grief, and then how to take that and apply it to the different forms of grief that we are experiencing, and that I think we’re not giving ourselves permission to experience. And I think that this is the crucial piece.

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You know I talk very often about the idea of giving yourself permission to be whatever it is that you need to be in that moment, and grief in particular, is one that we do not allow ourselves enough opportunity to really spend time in.

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I’ll give you an example. I have a wonderful client. He’s an older gentleman, and you know he grew up in an era where boys were taught. Boys, don’t cry, and when his father died as a young child, he distinctly even now, as an older gentleman

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remembers his mother saying to him.

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Boys, don’t cry during the funeral, so like, suck it up, Buttercup, and the the power that that has had over his life, his, his him as a very sensitive soul. His inability

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to give himself the space and the time to grieve

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has really held him back from being able to process many of the emotional aspects of his life, and it was something that we worked on quite a bit in our mentorship work, and still continues to be a ringing theme that is now different, because he can see it through different eyes. But there are moments when the child side of him comes up, and it’s just really hard to step away from that. Lessons from our parents are extremely difficult, and I’m sure that his mother was trying to show, you know, be strong.

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and all of these different kind of positive aspects. But she didn’t realize that grief is important, and grief

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takes many different forms and many, and it takes time

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so breaking down something that has that has happened to you, or something that is currently happening to you and not being beholden to it, but instead, being a part of that process, is very much the way an ecosystem would think the way a plant has to deal with it, because, remember, a plant is rooted in place. Sessile cannot run away, so the need to process things, the need to experience that

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grief to go through whatever it is that’s happening in whatever ways it comes to you becomes a fundamental part of being a plant. And if you think about it from the perspective of what are the 5 stages of grief? Right? We have denial. We have anger, we have bargaining, we have depression, we have acceptance.

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Most people don’t even know that those are the 5 stages of grief. They don’t understand that these are the stages of which you’re going to go through, and they’re not linear. They’re going to come in waves. That was what Walton was talking about in relation to this podcast episode, where she was saying, grief is like a crest. It’s a wave. It’s something that asks you to pay attention because it’s a flood of energy ultimately. And that’s exactly how grief touches us. We we deal with different levels of grief.

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I deny a piece for a while, then I get angry. Then from that anger comes a lesson, and I come back into me, and then maybe I’ll jump to accepting that piece. But I’ll move into another piece that I didn’t recognize in, and I’ll start the bargaining phase. So we go through these different phases in case you didn’t know about these phases, let me just briefly break them down. Kind of with a nature inspired context to it, because I think that could be really helpful for us.

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Denial is not only saying this isn’t happening right? I don’t go through grief relating to climate change, for example, by saying climate change isn’t happening. Sure there are those that are going to experience climate change in that way. But let’s be honest, not everybody right? Most of us that are here know that the climate is changing. We’re well aware of it.

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The denial in this perspective happens at the small scale. It’s not the big scale.

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Hold on.

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Thank you.

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As I’m recording this, it’s extremely hot, so you will see me breaking often for water. It’s a different, very important metabolistic process to have water in your system.

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So, going through that denial, we are not talking about denial of the overall event, we’re talking about denial on the small scale, and I think that that’s the part that we do not give ourselves enough permission

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to understand how something affected us in so many different ways, whether we’re talking about something like climate change. And my denial is the fact that I’m going to have to change the way that I dress

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because my clothing options affect the environment, or how much energy I consume, might be a little bit easier for me to think of on the large scale, except when it’s really really hot out. And I’m trying to debate how much. Well, I don’t have air conditioning, because now I live in Europe, and we don’t really believe in it, but in other places, not not in all places.

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but but you know, how much do I consume with a fan. How much do I put in air conditioning? All these different questions? Right? Their denial is also in small scales, even in the case of something like

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a death, or something like some kind of trauma that I have to process, and I have to grieve over the beautiful moments because not everything was ugly, even if I have a traumatic event, there might have been beautiful pieces of it that I deny ever having, because of the fact that it’s almost like accepting the bad by accepting the good.

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and that would never happen in a natural environment for a long period of time. Of course, if you see a plant.

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The fact that a plant, maybe withers in hot weather or experiences some kind of trauma based on the location being burned by the sun not getting enough sun, all these types of things. There is a piece of that that is denial. There is a piece of that that you could relate to denial, because at the very beginning, when the thing starts to happen, the plant doesn’t know how to deal with it, and some of it

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the plant tries to go. He just keeps trying to chug along as always. Right key tries to be. I don’t know a shade type of plant when I’m getting full sun, because the temperature has changed. And the you know, the plant doesn’t realize that right now, the space that they’re currently in has that experience. Or maybe a tree fell right before and opened up a space. And so now.

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plants that traditionally don’t get a lot of sun are getting a lot of sun. So there is a period where the plant keeps trying to chug along status as normal, and that is the denial phase, and we all go through it right? We all experience it, and we should experience it. And then there’s the anger phase, right? There’s that phase that is about getting pissed off at what’s happening. And that’s okay, too.

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Now, we don’t look at plants with the same emotions as we do for humans. So we can’t really just say anger in the way that we experience anger. But I would say, anger is

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very much something that we see the representation of in the plant world in the reaction, right? It’s the extreme reaction that might happen right. There’s this beautiful meme that’s been going around that is like showing how is it? It’s a tree that’s growing like a plant that’s growing on an electrical cable. So there’s like this electrical cable

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in the middle of some town or whatever, and it’s nothing. It’s bare and electrical tape cable, you know, running through in a city. It’s like the power lines that’s the word I’m looking for. And there’s a tree growing on one of these power lines, and it says something along the lines of like my house plants withering when you know I forget to water them for one day, and those in nature kind of saying.

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What the hell are you talking about? Right? And I think that that withering, if the littlest tiny thing or that initial extreme reaction is a great aspect of the combination between anger and denial.

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like the idea that the plant reacts. And you see this also in like bees, or you see this in other animals that it’s easier for us to understand. But if you spend a lot of time with plants, I think you get a really great idea of what an anger reaction is, and it’s not exactly what you would expect it to be. It’s very different, but you feel that it’s a reaction that’s not based on any kind of analysis that the plant has done. Yet it’s just a reaction to something that’s happening.

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And that is what what anger is. Right. I react to it. And I think we, as society, try to cut ourselves off because oftentimes anger leads me to behavior that I do not want to express, or to feelings that are maybe too hard and overwhelming for me to feel.

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But it is important for us to stop denying our anger. I am a person who

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I had a phase

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for a long time in my life that I was very angry, and it came out with a lot, a lot, a lot of judgment, and it is a, you know, Quirk of mine. We’ll just call it like that

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that that exists where I do express. I don’t. Yeah, I do express anger, and I get really frustrated at certain things. And then for a long time I thought that the only way that I could be a nonjudgmental person was to completely get rid of my anger, and I have to say, what I have learned is that doing that is no bueno

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nope, no good, no good. Do not do, do not do. The reason is because anger, righteous indignation, the understood. The the strong feelings can be really positive when you channel them through the right place. So it is important to feel, to allow yourself to feel that. And then the actions that come from that

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can be moved into different directions. And that’s something that I work with a lot with my clients. I want you to use that anger because that anger is something strong inside of you, based on your values and your morals, that tells you right from wrong. It tells you what direction you want to be going in.

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if it’s coming from a pure place. So what we do is strip away all of the fears from it all of those comparisonitis we strip away all the pieces. And that metabolic process that we’re talking about, that digestive enzyme that has to happen through the grief

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is stripping away the parts of the anger that are coming from your personal fears and reactivity

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in a negative way that are impacting you negatively, but the core anger that comes from my values show me this. I have chosen, not conditioning, not any kind of preconceived notion, but I have chosen this path, and this thing that’s happening angers me is extremely powerful and useful

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once it’s channeled in the right direction. So part of, for example, in my mentorship, working with my clients as a coach is really helping them. See, where is this coming from? Is it a place of fear, or instead, is it a place of values? And if it is a value based anger.

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where do we go with it? How do we strip away? How do we add those digestive enzymes. How do we look at it from a plant’s perspective of okay, this is my new environment. And I’m angry about this thing that has changed. But what if that is going to force me to make modifications into my environment versus instead? Which is this part over here that I have to, instead kind of metabolize in a different way, and extract

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out those aspects that don’t help me, so do not underestimate the value of anger. Anger is extremely useful when used well, and it is a fundamental part of the grieving process, whatever it is that you’re grieving the same as bargaining. Bargaining is where you get into the phase of understanding whether or not it is possible for you to create different types of relationships.

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Is it possible for you to create a symbiotic relationship, a mutualistic where it’s mutually beneficial relationship between whatever it is that you are grieving. Or instead, are you supposed to create something completely different? Don’t discard the bargaining phase as an opportunity for you to explore multiple relationship views. And is it a commensalism? Is it supposed to be something where one of our sides

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get something from it, and the other side gets nothing from it. Is it supposed to be something that instead we, this hurts both of us, and therefore I need to just expel it and get rid of it. Is it instead something where we can find an element where it’s beneficial? What are the parts of this that I keep, and what are the parts of it that go? If I don’t start to do this transactions.

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if I don’t really move towards the idea of these different elements. I’m never going to get there. I’m never going to have the opportunity to explore different opportunities and different perspectives connected to whatever it is that has triggered my grieving process. So, having a safe

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space, having a place where you can bargain whether that’s bargaining with yourself, because, whatever it is that you’re grieving is something that only you can go through, or whether you are bargaining with somebody else, because you’re in the middle of the grieving process with somebody or something else.

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And this is what happens in an ecosystem all the time there is sure a period of denial. Oh, my God, my ecosystem has changed. My overall. Environment has changed. I’m 1 element of this environment. I’m 1 part of this ecosystem. I’m going to pretend, as everything is going fine, and I’m going to keep going and seeing if this work that’s your denial phase. Then, when you see it doesn’t work, you can actually get into my

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anger, which is like, Okay, I’m just going to react. I’m going to react really strongly.

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And then you can go into the bargaining phase. Okay, this has changed. So let me go. Let me go check over here. You know what’s going on. I’m going to go check over here. Maybe I’m going to pretend that this is status quo. And over here, instead, I’m going to see if it’s completely changed. I start to interact more.

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And I go through this. And this is something that we can do step by step. Depression is another extremely important aspect of this.

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It’s okay for you to be sad.

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The mark of mental health today, in the most common definitions of when we talk about mental health, we really are talking about negative mental health. When I talk about mental health

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in the most part. What you’re thinking about is that there’s a problem. So we’re thinking about negative mental health. But the truth of the matter is that the word mental health is actually neutral. There is positive mental health, and there is negative mental health, and in positive mental health. It does not mean that I do not have moments of depression, of sadness of down. Of course I have all of those, but when I have, and I’m experiencing positive mental health.

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I am resilient. I can go through it. I can allow myself. If you’re like me. I just say I always say I throw myself on the floor, and I just

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feel I allow myself to sit in there and just feel.

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And then you, because you know that when you really feel when you allow yourself to experience that depression, that sadness, that pain, that hurt.

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I can feel it. And again I start to metabolize it. What are the elements of it that is made up of memories. Which of these memories should I hold on? To which of these memories should I let go? Of which of this is connected to. And this happens also in the plant world. Right? Remember, a plant is adjusting the way the plant grows based on the memories of the past, and some of that is letting go of the idea that maybe the temperature was 2 degrees

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cooler for most of this plant’s life. But now, based on the trends, the

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you know the temperature is going to be warmer, and therefore I have to behave accordingly. So I have those old memories. I I recognize them, but I have now integrated that into a new model of what the present day is. And so this is the kind of thing where, when you look at depression, you allow yourself to feel that sadness, to be in it, to swim in it, because you don’t know what’s going to bubble to the surface in it.

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but you also feel confident that there will be that moment of clarity where you’ll know. Oh, I’m on the other side, or where you’ll take what is necessary, and there will always be a sadness that will always sit in there right? There will always be something that you hold on to, but it doesn’t

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holds you back.

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It just takes you into that moment, and that that sweetness of that moment that you are now missing so much.

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so really, we want to redefine as we talk about all the time. Here is redefine, the terms where depression is not something that equals bad instead. Depression is a moment is an experience that you allow yourself to have in order to really break things down that metabolistic process

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where I’m I’m really allowing things to get into their different compartments and parts, and therefore I am choosing which ones I’m going to absorb. What are the lessons learned? What are the experiences had. What are those sweet moments that I am going to miss.

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and whether we’re talking about something like again? Climate things that I have to change behaviors, jobs left family members that you miss having to move far away, having to interact into a new group. All kinds of different aspects can trigger your grief process

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high levels of stress that we’re experiencing around all kinds of different topics oftentimes is because you don’t allow yourself into the grieving process. The grieving process allows me to accept what is going on, which is the final phase, and it isn’t really final, because the truth of the matter is, you will have moments where you’ll renegotiate this, and you’ll go through many waves of this grief.

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It’s not like once you process grief for something. It only happens once, and it’s a period of time. Sure, the bulk of it happens in that way, but there will always be little moments where the grief comes up and you process it over and over again.

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I mean, I have different topics that regularly come up, and it helps me reassess the choices that I’ve made today, some of which I can change, and some of which I can’t change. For example, you know I had a very, very dear friend, somebody who was extremely close to me. Pass away when I was in my twenties.

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I still have my moments where I’m like rehashing that in many tiny grief cycles. And it’s beautiful, because every time I I experience and I learn new things about myself, I I remember new lessons that this person taught me that I experienced when I was with this person that I that I was able to live through, and I also have the moments that I grieve for still, because they are opportunities lost

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at the same time. I also go through slight grief processes, for where I’m living right, the fact that I have moved in so many different countries over the years, or that I have changed. You know the way that I experience the world in that. And so therefore, sometimes I go through grief processes which allows me to understand and to reaffirm whether or not I am living in the exact, in the right place for me in the right moment.

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and so going through and giving myself permission to go through that grief process allows me to make and reaffirm that decision. So don’t also be afraid of the idea that

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you know acceptance comes once, and then that’s it. I’m done. No acceptance is something that also gets reaffirmed, redefined. You metabolize different pieces of it. There could even be parts of whatever it is that you want to grieve through, whether it’s your Eco anxiety that you’re grieving through, or whether or not it’s a conflict that you’re actually even currently in, and that you are grieving the fact that it’s happening

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as it’s happening. All of this gives you an opportunity to relook at everything that is going on. Remember the difference between wallowing, for example, and grieving is that in wallowing I don’t believe anything is going to change. I don’t believe anything can get better. I don’t believe that there is a purpose in what I am feeling, experiencing and doing, and there is something that the natural world would never do, because, given that plants and all of nature really have one goal which is to evolve

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every single one of these processes, these metabolic processes that have to happen.

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move things in a direction. And so, therefore, if you look at grief as a metabolic process that is, to move things into a new direction.

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You have an opportunity to really take new nourishment every time you process it. Every time you feel that denial? Should I be holding back? And should I make sure that everything stays the way that it is the anger? Where is my reactivity? Where am I, putting that anger to in order to turn it into constructive anger. The bargaining? What are the relationships that I now have? What relationships have changed?

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If I’ve changed, then. Obviously, my relationship to every single element connected to this process has changed. And therefore what needs to happen? As a consequence of that change.

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the depression, the sadness, the sweet memories that are still a piece of it, the things that you can deal and control and change, and the things that you can’t. And therefore you just have to live with that. Okay of that sadness or that beautiful memory that is holding inside of you. And acceptance is.

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what am I going to do about it today? What is integrated into me? And how does that become a new part of myself? This is extremely useful and important for us to recognize that the grieving process happens

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many, many, many times. It happens to us on a regular basis. And it’s okay.

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It’s okay. You know why? Because your positive mental health, based on your connections, based on your relationships, based on your ability to see yourself as someone who can go through it because you are strong enough to go through it. And when you feel like you’re not

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get support.

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get support.

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people that can hold that space. Whether that’s a professional or friends use the space around you to to really hose that hose. No.

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how’s that? That’s the word I was looking for. How’s that.

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And this is the reason why, for example, I created the naturally conscious community because my one on one clients I love working with them, one on one to have the opportunity for us to really go deep.

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to, to touch that vulnerability, to explore all these different aspects, for me, to even be sometimes tough and to help be that mirror that allows you to see things. But nothing is better than having a community around you to support that process. And the naturally conscious community is that safe

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sacred space for these types of deep conversations, and also bringing in the natural world.

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having the conversation with your bestest plant friend to understand better how it is that this

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connects into what you’re doing. How is it that you can work with your plants in order to become your most authentic self, and to have those mirrors that are not just one person who’s helping really mirror you, but mirrors from many other people in the community that help you see other ways to experience it. All right, I actually have to plug in my computer right now. And while I plug in my computer. This is what we’re going to do. I’m going to.

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I’m going to share with you one of our eco-conscious business partners, because I think that this is another opportunity for you to see more community in action, and to find those partnerships that best support you in the values and in the way that you want to grow

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any little bit we can do to help the environment is a win in my book. That’s why I’m such a fan of who gives a crap, a bee certified company that donates 50% of profits to ensure everyone has access to clean water and a toilet within our lifetime.

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Not all of us have access to a bidet. So if you have to wipe your bum with something, this is the best toilet paper to choose.

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they wrap their Tp in paper, not plastic, which saves tons of harmful plastic from ending up in our landfills or hurting animals, and get this one box of Tp. Can last up to a whole year. Trust me, I’ve tried this with my own family.

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They have 2 eco-friendly options, one made out of recycled sheets.

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and other from bamboo sheets, which is super fast growing alternative to trees.

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They’re soft and strong and really hold up.

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Who gives a crap, delivers to your door and offers 100% money back. Guarantee

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you can’t beat that. So click on the link in the show notes to give it a go.

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Are we back.

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Note to self. Always plug in your computer before you go. I have this tendency to. When I 1st start working in the day, I don’t like to plug my computer in. I have I? I have a laptop that I work with mainly, and I really enjoy the idea of letting you know, using that battery like not just having it always be charging, hey? It’s a thing I do.

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Anyways, we were talking about the naturally conscious community as your safe space, and I really want you to know that this place here is there for you to be able to express yourself authentically for you to go through your grief, to go through your celebrations, to go through your transformations, to go through your metabolic processes

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in a safe place, and where you could do it as a being of nature, where you know that you are going to be

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working with more than just the human world. But all of other kin together. So I am extremely appreciative of these conversations that we get to have together, and I hope that if you enjoy them you will support us through the naturally conscious community, and if you need personal support, please feel free to reach out to me. I am here for you. I’m here with you, and I’m here for you, and so are all of the plant partners that I work with.

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because there is nothing more beautiful in this world to me. There’s nothing more beautiful than when a group of people are able to express themselves authentically with confidence as the beings of nature, that they are to accomplish what they came here to do in this world, that to me is my ultimate goal. To help you make all of your dreams come true.

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and I am excited that we get to do this together. So remember, if you like, this

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follow like comment, subscribe. You know all those types of things that you do because this podcast is here really to support you on your process.

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So thank you so much for this episode of reconnect with plant wisdom.

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that’s it, for now

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this is me, Tigrilla Gardenia. I’m out

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bye.

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Thanks for listening to this episode of reconnect with plant wisdom, intro and outro music by Steve schuli and poinsettia from the singing life of plants. So join me, Tigrilla Gardenia, and my plant collaborators next time on reconnect with plant wisdom.