Ep.110 Evolving Wild with Eric Inman

Hello, hello, hello, everyone.Welcome back to another episode of Reconnect With Plant Wisdom.It’s me, Tigiri Gardenia.So this is, an episode I ha- I have t- I just have to laugh.I have to laugh because there is th- th- you’ll, you’ll see, okay.So first and foremost, let’s tell you a few things about this episode.1, it’s amazing.It’s amazing.I, um, when I first had a conversation with Erik Inman, I w- was like, “Okay, where is this going to go?I am not exactly sure.”And then, as I just talked to him, he has this way, this connected way of being, which means he struggles with his words, that I love so much.I love so much.And just as I predicted, this conversation was fantastic to really understand what it means to come into deep contact with, you know, another being of nature.In particular, we were talking about the river and we were talking about that, that reawakening of that, of your, of your natureness, let’s just say, with a, with a capital N.But what I loved about this conversation was just Erik’s approach.I mean, he is an ecopsychologist.He has, you know, ample experience.He takes it from many different angles, and I just really enjoy, and I know you’re gonna love the way we were able to kind of just come into this communion, um, with these beings of nature of which we were talking about, but I could f- you could feel them.You could just feel them present.Now, I will tell you this, uh, Erik’s audio and video is a little bit eh, eh, eh, so hopefully you will just forgive him for that.Um, uh, we’re doing our best to clean it all up.But it was just such a good conversation that I didn’t want to, you know, lose any part of it.So I know you are going to love it just as much as I did.So without further ado, this is Episode 110, 110 Evolving Wild with Erik Inman.Enjoy.Welcome to Reconnect With Plant Wisdom.I’m your host, Tigiri Gardenia, nature-inspired mentor, certified life coach, and the founder of the Naturally Conscious Community.For over a decade, I’ve been known as a world ambassador for plant advocacy, working closely with plants to share their practical wisdom to help you consciously embody the elements of life that nourish your evolution.In this podcast, I delve into ancient and modern knowledge from biology to spirituality about the wondrous ways of plants.Together, we’ll explore how ecosystem thinking helps you overcome limiting beliefs, understand the true nature of relationships, and live an authentic, impactful life.Okay, Erik, I feel like we have, um, we’ve almost done this interview, like, 3 times because we just keep-chitchatting about stuff and then are like, “Oh, yeah, we’ll talk about that, and then we’ll talk about that.”And then- Yeah.at some point, we’re like, “Okay, it’s gotta start.”So before we start anything at all, can you please just introduce yourself to the audience.Who is Erik Inman?is Erik Inman?Hi.Um, thanks for having me on your show first.Yeah.Um, yeah, no, thanks for having me on this show.I love the premise, and I’m really excited about the conversation.Um, I am, uh, let’s see.I’m a, uh, I have a master’s in ecopsychology, kind of background in wilderness therapy.Right now, my big focus is offering, um, psilocybin-aligned, nature-based journeys, um, legal psilocybin in Oregon.And so I’m permitted in the national forest and I go to these places, and we also do the psilocybin in a legal way and, um, yeah, in- in- in- indoors and have this journey around it.Um, and I’ve been, yeah, really about connecting people with the natural world emotionally, uh, in a number of ways, and with their- their wild self, right?So I have to laugh becauseSo I just wanna tell everybody why I’m laughing ’cause you and I have, this is, you know, this is the second time we talked.The first time we talked, as you can all tell, Erik is very, like, soft-spoken, and there’s aI kept digging because I could feel this, like, deep connection, passion, that’s hiding behind a whole series of master’s in ecopsychology terminology and all these other things.And as a person who also has a master’s, who’s worked a lot in, like, the scientific realms and, you know, who’s always, who doesn’t really care about the words as much as, like, some of my pro- probably colleagues who have had to work in certain things, I just kept digging.And I was like digging and digging and digging until I hit water, to be honest.I hit, I hit the river, and all of a sudden, his face changed, and things started to come out of his mouth.So that’s-I’m, I’m just gonna jump right into it.because, because the thing is, and, and l- let’s just set the premise up, right?The premise is you do really beautiful things that have this sort of edgy, um, alternative side which makes them a little bit scary and a little bit fascinating.And also because you are talking about, you know, working with mushrooms in a sort of therapeutic, you have these 2 ends, this is my opinion on, I, please correct me if I’m wrong, you have these 2 ends that you have to be really cautious about, right?One is you don’t wanna attract the sort of recreational party person who thinks, “Oh, I’m gonna go trip and then go, like, you know, go down the river,” ’cause that’s not safe.And at the same time, you’re also working in a field that kind of, for lack of a better term, to give it legitimacy, has almost constrained the way they talk about it because ecopsychology in, in so many aspects, at least all of that I’ve come across of it, and again, working in biophilic design and, and in, you know, different aspects of biomimicry and biophilia, I’ve come across this a lot, which is, you know, you have this, this un-how do I say?Undescribable kind of connection to nature, but that needs to be quantifiable from a statistically, uh, scientific, you know, psychological thing.And so unfortunately, a lot of people feel super stifled in the fact that what they’re trying to do is say, “Connection to nature makes you happier, makes you more generous, makes you feel good, and, and brings out this whole other side of you.”I can say that, but I can get it why it’s not that easy to say.I’d love to kinda hear how you ended up kind of where you are from the perspective of, you know, you d- you do something that, uh, taking people on a type of journey that is, to a certain extent, like, outside of the normal realm of what I think about.How did you end up going there?Huh.It’s a l- it’s a long story.Um- We got some time.We got, yeah.time, great.Yeah, I mean, there’s kind of, there’s 2 parallel tracks, right?That’s to, to, to my entire story.Um, one is the, uh, is the nature connection piece of it, right?And I’ve been connected to nature, you know, backpacking really as a kid.I got really into skiing through my adolescence and just kind of went out a bunch doing that, and I alsoThen I became a river guide, um, while I was in college, and that kind of like, that was the first time I really felt like I belonged.I had, you know, I was just on the water every day during, during the summer and just, you know, like, it was an amazing experience.And that kind of like moved towards this guiding aspect, right?Of, of what I do.Then there’s also the psychology piece, which is essentially consciousness, um, you know, and that’s, you know, the study of consciousness or something along those lines.And, um, I mean, I never felt quite right in human-made worlds or institutions or school, and I was smart, but like, I just, there was something kinda off, you know?Like, they knew it and I knew it, and it just- I understand.Yeah, yeah.And so, I meanAnd after high school, between high school and college, I, uh, went to a phish show and I took some acid, and I mean, I’d taken acid before, but this one, it just absolutely blew my mind.I felt that connection with everything, the mystical experience, which I didn’t know.I didn’t even know was a thing until I went through my, my, my mushroom training.Like, I mean, I knew it was a thing, but like, the name for it, you know, that goal.But anyway, so I had this really powerful experience, and then I went to study psychology in the’ 90s, and, you know, if you suffe- suffer from hallucinations or delusions or this and that, you are schizophrenic and you need to be institutionalized.And I’m, you know, like, “What?”I’myou know?And so, and then s- and, and, and the whole kind of, and being a skier, the reason I went into psychology being a skier, well, that, like to study what this, what this mode of consciousness was, but also, um, I was really worried about climate change, like back when, you know, early ’90s when it was starting to become more popular, but like, I was worried there wasn’t gonna be snow.And I’m, but I’m also like, you know, that kind of dug, got me into it, but I also like, “Well, why are we doing this?”You know?It’s not because we don’t have solutions.It’s, we’re choosing to, right?And so those 2 worlds and like, and being at home in the natural world and not understanding this human-made one really kind of like moved and, you know, when I became a river guide, that’s when I started to kind of be in community around something different, you know?Something not human-made, and then, um, yeah, I got into wilderness therapy.After I graduated, I moved to Oregon.I, I did work in residential mental health for a little bit, and it just didn’t really have much umph.The kids were kinda going through the motions, this kinda thing.When I moved to Oregon, I, um, worked in wilderness therapy, and it was a great program and, um, you know, it was, uh, like the kids all went through things, I went through things.We did a lot of stuff outdoors.We were just really connected to the, to the nature, you know?And, and, and kids were committed to their growth and healing because it was so vibrant, you know?They didn’t get the funding, um, you know, so it’s just been this constant struggle of like while the human-made world is more and more encroaching on the natural world, it’s also capturing that piece of our consciousness, right?Um, that, that, that, how do we make it make money?You know?Right.How do we make it make s- yeah, I mean, make it make sense?But I mean it doesn’t make a lot of sense.I don’t want to say that, that something about what we’re doing makes very much sense at all.Right.But, uh, yeah.It’s, it’s really been, that’s kind of been the, the, the 2 things I’ve been wrestling with for a while and trying to understand how to bring forward.I like how you put it in because unfortunately right now, and I think i- i- a- a big piece of it is that our human-made world, it’s almostI, I would almost rename it because it’s an, it’s the disconnected-made world.In other words, there is a human-made world that is made in connection when w- and you see it.I mean, we, we, there are places that you can still go to, p- peoples, groups, cultures, that you can go into and you walk in and you’re like, “Wow.This is all human-made, but it’s human-made with nature.”Right.In other words, people are still connected.They’re an integral part of, you know, the natural world and the natural world is co-creating and there’s a co-creation.It’s, it’s very far and few and far between, but we see it.We feel it.That essence of what it is.Unfortunately, we have this large preponderance of this disconnected human-made world that is kind of like you said, um, it, it’s causing us all kinds of different, um, mental stress, mental illness, all kinds of different part as, you know, we, uh, uh, as Dr.Corey Keyes, who I always quote ’cause I really love his work, talks about, you know, the difference between negative mental health and positive mental health.Mm-hmm.’Cause we use the word mental health as if it’s always negative, and it’s like, there isn’t.There’s, there’s the whole flourishing versus languishing perspective, and but flourishing requires that connection, requires that element, so I can understand that, um, you know, as the disconnected world keeps encroaching on the natural world, it just f- makes it feel even worse because now you’re trying to apply nega- uh, not negative, um, disconnected activities in a natural setting thinking that that’s gonna fix it.And then the few people who do get it, who realize that that’s not what it is, like you said, you’re, you’re, you’re almost struggling to say like, “No, no, no.Here, here.Fund this ’cause this is working.”Like, “This is different and this is, you know, something that is actually going to help.”How do you see, and, and I don’t want to put you on the spot too much, I will put you a little bit on the spot, but like- No.cool.how do you see the difference, like when you think about for example, I’m, I’m gonna use the example of something that I know you care about, right, like a river rafting trip.Let’s just use that perspective of somebody who’s connected and who is taking you on an experience of connection to the river, and what do you feel like is different in that from like somebody who’s doing it for sport who’s just taking you to like, uh, “You dominate the river,” and that whole wording of dominate the river, you know, dominate your fears, go deal with all thewhich is not the same thing.Yeah.Well, yeah.Um, I mean, the difference, I mean, there’s, there’s all kinds of, um, river guides, you know, all kinds of people have their own perspectives on everything.Um, but a lot of there’s, there’s the 2 different aspects and some people can get really focused on kind of paddle commands, being in the boat, um, this kind of thing that talking about, you know, just keeping like the conversation in the boat, um, and you know, and talking about the splashes and the excitement and the adren- and like, you know, and kind of like really amping that up and things.Um, and then there’s, when it starts to get, you know, you start to get into the larger awareness of, “Where are we?What is this river?”And, you know, “How was it made?”And kind of give some background around that and for me, the thing that really kind of starts to make a shift, help people make that shift, is bringing the awareness of feeling and how do you feel, who are you when you’re there, how do you feel when you’re there, and what kind of things come to light?And a rafting trip is a pretty short time, but it’s really intense, right?I think water’s just this really great, conductor of a lot of things, you know.Um, including, um, including kind of emotional and psychological transformation, like it can happen really quickly, whereas on land I think, you know, you, you don’t get splashed so you can take a hike for a few hours and like you get the physical piece but like it’s not asWhereas water, pish-wa!You know?You’re kind of like- Exactly.So yeah.I mean, really starting to, starting to feel into that and then where does the conversation go,Um, and yeah.On a larger scale, how do you bring it forward?And I think a rafting trip is a really confined thing if it’s just like a day trip, you know.Um, I offer overnight trips and things like that and help, help people have time out there and really get into the flow of consciousness, um.But yeah.I mean, there are a couple of things in that question that, that just kind of came up in terms of theThere’s a way, yes, that, so, yes, sorry.No, no.Remember I told you this, and I’m gonna repeat it to everybody who’s listening because I say it often- Repeat it to me too.my favorite piece is when we lose the words, because when we lose the words, it’s when we’ve refound the connection, because the natural world doesn’t always talk to us through human speak.So what we’re- Mm-hmm.trying to do here, and, and thank you for even taking that time because that’s already shows the difference, is how do we tr- how do we translate for a person who’s listening or watching a feeling, uh, an experience that is, uh, transcends our humanality, right?It, it connects our humanness to our animalness, to our plantness, to our waterness in this case, to something that’s way beyond that, d- doesn’t really have words.It’s, it’s like- Hm.your body feels it, you move it, it’s like you said, the splash and the ah, and, and, and so to me, every time whenever ev- everybody that I interview who comes in and starts to stutter through the words, that’s when I know we’re on the right track.We’re there.We’re getting to the right place.Perfect, I love that.I love that.Um, yeah.So, um, when I was- what I was stuttering about , um, is that there is this, there’s, there’s essentially 2The way that I view consciousness is there’s 2 things happening that are, that are, um, that’s always a balance, right?Um, and it’s our, our ego, which is our conscious representation of our mortal selves, um, physically it keeps us safe, it keeps us kind, it, it recognizes as an individual, um, it’s kind of plans and strategizes and keeps our physical self alive, right?And, and that’s, you know, a limited perspective.It also kind, it’s the basis of all these fears and all these things that keep us from seeing something larger, which is our soul.That’s our, it goes beyond our, our, our, our physical selves and life and death and time and, you know, all this stuff, and it, and it is connected to everything.And we’re always in, and, and when we’re in that frame, we’re really in a flow, and when we’re in the ego, we’re, you know, in this straight line.Um, so it’s a balance of that, or psychology’s a balance of that, and the more that the ego has control on things, the more disconnected we are from the natural world.It, in a nutshell.And a lot of the things that we’ve built up at this point as people is, is ego based and, you know, plans and, you know, kind of keeping ourselves more where we are.We’ve done well at, um, kind of extending our life and, you know, kind, and making things more comfortable, but at the same time, we’ve lost this connection to something more, right?And so when we’re speaking to people through a computer, um, where people are in that egocentric world, they’re on, in their cars or they’re s- looking at a screen or something, and so there’s kind of an appeal to that.But there’s also this, um, this thing that we’re both trying to get at, that, that I think, you know, that, that everyone wants is this real kind of like passion, this openness, and this, this connection, um, and how do you, how, how’s, how do you convey that, right?And, and, and just, I mean, for me, it’s going out there and doing these things and offering these things to other people, and the way that I’ve found th- th- joy in everything and, and then, you know, exploring that with people and, you know, checking in with their art, ’cause there’s, um, yeah.There’sIt’s, it’s funny that it’s, you know, I’ve heard like n- niche, that this is niche, um, and, um, some otherI, I can’t remember how, what, what you were saying here.But, um, to me, there’s not many people who don’t love a river, right?Right.Who don’t love nature- As I’m looking at the river in front of me.I have a giant river right in front- Sure.of my window here.Nice.That’s great.Yeah.Yeah.I wish I did.Not today.Um, but yeah, I mean, you know, when you’re hiking, you know, you go along a trail and, um, you know, there’s thisthere’s just a beautiful river and how to spend more time in that, right?Go along it in a boat.That’s, that’s the best way tosafest way for sure.Right.Um, yeah, and so, um, yeah.I was on, I was on a track there.I’m loving this ’cause it’s like-I feel like the river consciousness has just arrived and we’re trying to speak on Ki’s behalf and are struggling.And I guess that’s, that’s a question- Yeah.I have for you right now which is, you know, you talk about the 2 sides of consciousness that we as human beings have, right, our ego side, orI love that, conscious representation of our physical self.Um, I have to admit, I hadn’t heard that definition and I really like it, where you look at that at the soul level, um, how do you see the, the river consciousness?Like, is there, uh, a moment of connection?Do you feel it when you kinda tap in at a different side of yourself to the consciousness of the river, of the river also?Yeah.I mean, yeah, there’s all kinds of studies about how even when you’re, when you’re near the river there, the ions affect you and, you know, when you see what or how that affects people’s brains, um, and if you want an immersive, nature-based experience, jump in the river, right?Right.True.Shift everything real quick.But, um, but there’s also a, a, a, a another piece around all of it, um, that we as people, not too long ago, a few hundred years ago, used to be at the river or at a lake every single day, and we’d, we’d get our source from there, and we’d see, when we go there, we see the animals getting their s- their, their life from the river, you know, their, their water, and, you know, there’s bugs and plants and, um, you know, fishand all kinds of things and there’s that, the river kind of up and down and it kinda creates this zone of life and it’s just everything moves out from the river.And when we don’t have that, we don’t, you know, and we don’t really need to go to the river anymore, I think we just completely overlook it, and it’s really overlooked in a lot of, um, environmental consciousness.Uh, you know, we’re very worried about climate change and stuff and, you know, but don’t really think about the river.We just kinda take it for granted, and then we dam it up and there’s, you know, it just dies.It gets stagnant and it’s, there’s a zone, you know, like when it, when there’s a dammed river, there is just the river and there’s land above it and there’s water below it and nothing’s kind of alive.When the river drops, you can just see the line of demarcation where it’s just, you know.You are just describing the view outside my window-’cause I literally have a river right in front of me and probably around, what is that?200 meters down going i- in one direction, I have the dam, ’cause literally the dam is right there, and, um, it’s been raining the last few days so the river is really high right now, but we’ve had some periods, like last year, I was depressed because the river had gone down and this part of the river being so close to the dam is exactly what you just said.So when the, when the water comes down- Hmm.it’s like this line of demarcation where all this beautiful green, ’cause I live in a valley, it’s called the Val Chiusella, which is the cl- the, the Closed River, like the Closed Valley which is because this river is called the Val Chiusella River, or the Chiusella River, which is the Closed River.And so when the water goes down, all you see is this super dr- dried earth and like, the plants stop at a certain point and you have this little island, kinda that got formed in the middle, that as I’m, I’m looking at, that’s why I’m looking off to the side but as the water goes down, like you said, there’s this thing and there’s this feeling in this part of the river that’s very artificial feeling.It’s- Hmm.it’s, it’s weird.I have this beautiful meadow in front of me.I have beautiful like, verdant, you know, ecosystem, but that part of it, to me, is very like contained, and a little bitIf you go way farther upstream ’cause this is, this river comes all the way down and there’s like an, an area up high where there’s a lot of trout and stuff like that- Mm-hmm.and so there’s movement.There’s more life.It’s a d- it’s a different energy than the energy that is here.And it’s so weird.Yeah.It’s just so weird.It is.It is, yeah.And I think that’s a really good example of kind of just when the ego, right, like that dam is like a human-built thing and we think, “Oh, well this is gonna make things better,” but really when we try and control too much, we don’t.We kind of mess it up, you know?Right.Um, and it does make things a little easier for us in the short term but it really kind of, it, it’s, it hamstrings us in the long term.And I think this is what, this is w- this is where I was trying to get back to earlier is, is this, um, the culture ofgeez.I’m having trouble putting it into words.I’m okay with that.Yeah.Yeah.The justA- and I think we’re circling around it.It’s just this culture of controlling things and-Um, you know, it’s, it’s creating problems but, and, and we, we’re, we grew up in that.We, that’s what we know and that’s how we kind of relate to it, and so in a sense we have a lot of ego even when we think we don’t, you know?Like, and so when people get out and they, and they find that love, that passion, that connection, it, it allows a different part of us to kind of take control, you know?They’re both always gonna be there.Right.We, we need both of them, um, but when the ego’s in the driver’s seat, which it is for so much of the time when we’re in our culture and things like that, and just, you know, creating these, creating things that don’t really serve us real well in the long term.And now it’s not, now even in the short term re- there’s a lot of questions, but when we get out there and we find that passion, we find that love, then this piece of us kind of comes in that, that is more connected, that really taps into our true gift.We are all n- wild nature in ourselves too, you know?We’re, we’re cosmic beings, you know?We’re a- animals on this rock, Right.floating through space, um, that came here at a critical time with a, with a purpose, and without really finding that love and that passion and, you know, being with ourselves for periods of time to explore that and deepen into that, um, yeah.I mean, when we do that, we, we find this different calling about what we’re doing, and it’s not unrelated to the way we live, but it really, to, to who we are, but it, it just has a different kind of expression.It has a different driving force behind it, and that’s l- l- love, you know, and it’s, and it’s passion and, you know, what we, what we love to do, um, but yeah.And then, and then there’s the, the balance of how to appeal to that.Right.yeah.Well, and I think that the thing ab- that’s interesting about rivers, you know, I grew up by the ocean ’cause I’m originally from South Florida so I grew up, like, super close to the ocean, and then when I went to live in Seattle, you know, it was more, again, the river culture and, and, you know, I, I did go rafting several times, and it, it is a d- a different beast.Like, they’re 2 different- Mm-hmm.pieces but there’s some elements that are the same that I find that are really fascinating, and it, it is that, that idea of how do y- you, you can’t relinquish complete control to the water source, right?Just the same as I can’t relinquish- No.complete control to my emotions or anything.I can’t just let go 100%.I mean, we, we wanna think that that’s what it is.Go into the water and let go.Let go and die, okay?Let’s just be honest.We have to learn-how to flow with it, you know?Yeah.Sometimes we have to swim.Sometimes we have to, you know, float.Sometimes we have to sink a little bit.Like, it’s not aI think the metaphor that we sometimes try to give ourselves which is, “Go out and, let go completely,” I’m like, “If you’re in a pool, that might work, but if you’re in any kind of body of water that is alive, which of course any river, any ocean is alive, it is about, uh, a conversation you’re having-” Mm-hmm.”with that water source, and especially if you’re rafting because most of, likely you’re going through rapids and different parts like that where there can be rocks and there can be other impediments and, you know, different, different movement,” and even any person who will, like, isn’t experienced whether you’re talkingHere we have, in the area where I am, we have kayakers, you know?Like, the, and, and kayaking is a big thing in this area, and it, it’s, it’s n- it’s a dance.It’s a, a relationship.It’s a letting go of your need to control, like you said, in order to feel where the river is going to take you.Where is that current going to move?And do I wannaAnd yet you still can’t give up and say, “Oh, well, where the movement wants to take me.”It’s like, “Uh, no, ’cause it could take me straight into rocks,” you know?Yeah.It’s about knowing, yes, I am going to let go of my ego or, like, not, like you said, ego is not a bad thing in and of itself because it is the conscious part of my physical body, but it’s about ego not having to control but more of, “Okay, ego, you’re here.wanna keep me safe.So in order to keep me safe, we have to start this dialogue with this other being, who’s not just me, who is the river,” and everybody else who’s in the river, because honestly the river is, you know, one being, but there are fish, and there’s rocks, and there’s all these other kinds of beings that are inside of the river living their lives too.And so it’s more of this giant ballroom dance to a certain extent, probably a little faster, that’s happening, that we have to shut down the part of our bodies and the part of our consciousness that is, like, f- just plain fear control and say, but at the same time, keep high the part of my consciousness, and like you said, my, my ego side that is aware of my body and where my body needs to go and what my body needs to stay safe.And so, where they’re also saying to the river in this discussion that’s happening, is like, “Okay, you wanna take me this way?I see rocks.Are you sure that you’re not just gonna put me straight into the rocks?”And being able to hear back the call of the river that says, “No, you’re right.I’m gonna take you into the rocks.Shift,” versus, “No.Trust me on this.I’m gonna, I’m gonna turn you right in the right moment, but you gotta go with me.You gotta have that.”And feeling into this where it’s not 100% relinquish.We don’t relinquish all of ourselves.We, we dance, we listen, we play.Mm-hmm.And I think that that’s the difference between what you were saying.If everything is happening inside the boat only, you miss that experience.If what’s happening is boat and water together, right, all the people, it’s, it’s all these different consciousnesses that are mixing together, then you have the opportunity to, like, dance this dance, and, and listen and give and take and move through it.And the only way, in my opinion, to do this, is by both acknowledging that both of us are important beings, right?The river is important- Mm-hmm.and that consciousness is important and, and sovereign and we wanna be able to honor, but at the same time, I’m also important.Mm-hmm.And I wanna be able to honor myself and what I need and all these different parts.And I, and I feel like that’s sometimes what gets lost in the outdoor- Mm-hmm.sports world that we have, right?We, we don’t, a- and, and this goes the same, I mean, we’re having this conversation right now about water, but to me it’s the same as why I don’t really talk a lot about hiking, because the majority, you know, not the majority, that was a judgment.That’s not what I meant.There are people who go hiking for the sport of it.There are people who go dirt biking or mountain biking or all of this for the sport of it, which means I’m the most important thing.And then there are those that do it from that dance that we’re talking about.”I’m gonna walk a little bit here.I’m gonna lay down over there.I’m gonna, you know, go really fast through this part, but I’m actually gonna slow down here, because that’s what’s needed.I’m gonna turn”You know, all these different pieces.And I just wonder how, when you’re taking a group down, how do you get them into that space?How do you get them to realize that, that, that this is that dance that needs to be done?Right.Yeah.That’s a great question.Thanks for all that context.Short answer, mushrooms.I’m telling you, they work wonders.The fast-tracked way.There’s people like me who spend, you know, years doing all of this other stuff, you’re like, “You wanna fast track it, man?Let’s just go do some mushrooms.”Well, no, but it’s not- No, I’m kidding.it’s simple though.I know, I’m just jokingmean, it is, I mean, it is funny simple, like that- Um, and you were talking about kayaking, right, which is a very skilled thing.Mm-hmm.And where you’re, you, you’ve kind of learned all these skills, your ego has, you know, you, you’ve trained yourself to do these things and, you know.Um, what I offer is very safe, contained guided experiences.And, um, there is an intention of really e- deepening that connection and using plant medicines, using mushrooms specifically, to help with that.Um, so, uh, on the journeys that I offer, there, there’s, the first day is just preparation.We go into nature and just start to really move away from the everyday habits and mindsets that people have.Um, the second day is the mushroom day, and that’s, again, indoors, it’s in a safe, legal space in Oregon.And then the next 3 days are all integration.When people are in this expanded kind of state of awareness and they’re creating these new, feedback loops, these new patterns and habits and everything and they’re doing it in the healthiest way possible, but I, I think anyway, in the natural world.Um, and they are very open and it’s, and it is less of a, you know, they’re not making those crucial life or death decisions.I am.Right, right.I’m I’m a lot of the physical world and the physical responsibilities so that they can go on this ethereal, connective experience, and yeah, that’s a different state than someone who just comes out for the day, they show up at, like, 10:00, put on the wetsuits and gear, and then go out and paddle the river and, you know, and then get off it.I can kind of, you know, I can, I can offer some things and bits of wisdom and some people are very open to know, the things I say.Most people, I kinda start talking about my stuff and I can almost feel their eyes glaze over, you know?Right.It’s not where they are-when we do that, everyone’s like, I mean, everyone kind of chooses to be in it-but, like, everyone’s in it, and everyone’s, like, feeling these real deep things.And, you know, and, uh, yeah, and, and, and when it comes down to it, we are technological beings.We are cultural beings, so we gravitate towards those things.We are gonna, we are gonna continue to do that, um, but what guides our decisions and our motivations and our values essentially is going to come from a place of thinking we know what’s best and, like, acting from that.And it’s usually pretty self-centered versus doing what we know and we love and we’re passionate about.And it might not even make sense in terms of our human-made world.Like, nothing that I do makes sense in terms what-people are, like, worried about me ’cause, I mean, I sacrificed a lot just to do it, you know- Right.um, just to keep it going.And, um, it’s just a struggle around every corner, you know?I’m always kinda, like, but at the same time, I know that there’s nothing else that I could do in my life that would bring as much change, um, or fill my cup, you know, um, z- like, make me believe, you know, that I’m living the life that I’m supposed to be, that I’m here to live, you know?And that’s the, the wild nature within this, this, this thing that guides our lives that we don’t really even understand before we c- become conscious of, like, what it is.You know, we spend so much of our lives trying to figure out who we are, and, uh, yeah, there’s just a, a way that when you move into these different states through plant medicines and connection with nature, um, really, yeah, both of ’em together are great.Connection with nature will do it.I think plant medicine without that nature connection is really missing point a lot.That’s where people get into the imaginary world and just, you know, like this kind of spiritual bypassing and things like that, and it, you know, there’s, and I, you know.Yeah.I don’t wanna go, wellI like that, I like that second of, like, “I don’t wanna go, well”I mean-look- I don’t wanna go down that road.I have, I told you earlier, you know, I, I do a lot of pre-interviews for the podcast.And, and I, and as you, as you know ’cause you went through one of them, like, my pre-interviews- Yeah.aren’t just like, “Let me ask you 2 questions.”They’re like, “Let’s get into a, like, a mini-conversation,” because as you just said, there is a lot of that.There is a lot of people who are, like, who wanna talk to us about, uh, I can see the difference between t- you know, taking something, you know, working with, in, in p- in particular, like, working with a mushroom, working with a fungu- uh, with the fungi in order to, um, kind of predispose you to something that then allows you to continue that because obviously, to a certain extent, you c- pardon me for saying it this way, but it’s not like you can get on a river, like, get on a raftin a river and be totally, like, high out of your mind.It doesn’t work, right?Because that would be dangerous as hell.Yeah.So that’s not the point, right?The point is not, you know, the point is let’s have this experience as you said in that first day that opens kind of my senses, that gives me permission because maybe I’m not able to give myself permission yet, I’m not there yet, that allows me to, you know, with the help of these mushroom guides, to help me sort of get to a place then give it a shape because, you know, come down enough to, like, give it a shape, but don’t close it down because you’re still out there.So rather than, like, sending you home for the day and having you come back, you stay in that environment.So we call it here a bola which is a, uh, like a sphere, a ball that gets created of energy, so you’ve now amplified everybody’s senses, working very closely, I’m assuming, with the, you know, the mushroom beings who are helping you hold that space and then- Mm-hmm.still get to a place where the people are like, “Okay, I can, you know, touch my nose with my finger.Like, I’m not out of it.”And then I can actually get into the river so that it facilitates this sort of, “Oh, okay, I’m coming into the river not as, again, exercise, but I’m coming into connection.I’m coming into this space from a place of, I am a being of nature who is now w- with, and participating with, and in another being of nature.'” And so- Mm-hmm.we’re, we’re gonna do this piece, so it, it’s understandable that this is, for some people, unfortunately, like you said, the human world, the hum- the, that human disconnected world is so strong in them, it’s all they know anymore.Yeah.Yeah.And they’ve been told that everything else is scary, fearful- Mm-hmm.something to be avoided, and so this is probably the best way for them to, like, kickstart themselves into it.It’s a great way, yeah.Yeah, and I think, you know, I think that, that touches on a lot of the, the difficulty is that, 1, the perception that it’s like this adrenaline thing, like, this, this exciting thing.Most of the time on the river is just spent quiet and enjoying the absolute gorgeousness of these places, you know?And there are, like, you know, there are a handful of rapids along the thing and it’s, like, exciting and there’s, like, build-up towards it, you know, but they’re, like, real quick, um, a raft is far safer than, like, a kayak or something and obviously far safer than swimming, but- But, uh, but there’s still that fear element, you know?There’s still something that, like, energizes a little bit, but at the same time, you know, if people are like, “I’m scared, I wanna sit in the boat,” you know?Just sit down in the middle of the boat and I’ll get you through it, you know?Like that’s not- Right.It’s, it’s not aFor most of it, it’s really this serene thing, and, um, yeah, and then just having that, just being in that expanded state.We don’t go to the river even the same day as mushrooms or even the day after.It’s usually at least a couple of days separated, um, because, yeah, there is that, you know, when you’re in plant medicine, there is that, um, you’re in this different frame of consciousness, in that, in that soul consciousness, and so manipulating the physical world becomes more difficult.It’s weird, you know?Right.Weird stuff happens and we don’t want- Right.weird stuff to happen on the raft.We want you to be weird, but we don’t want weird stuff happening.Exactly.I like that.So- “We want you to be weird, but not weird stuff happening.”I’m good with that.I’m good with that.Okay.Good following?That’s good.That’s good.Yeah, because I can totally see that, that that gives that space to people, and, I mean, not everybody needs it.I mean, honestly, there are, there are, of course, lots of people who, who don’t, and that’s not the point of it.The point is to give yourself over to another experience where, again, how do I dance with these different beings, whether we’re talking about the mushrooms, whether we’re talking about the river, whether we’re talking about the, like you said, enjoying this beautiful scenery which is all these plant beings around you, the birds, everything that is part of, “I am a being of nature and I’m having this experience as a being of nature.”And I think that we need more opportunities like that, and I think that that’s what works for certain, you know, types of forest ther- of, of, like, forest therapy and of, um, um, s- forest bathing and things like that, which is when you pass a certain point and you allow yourself to say, “I am a being of nature.”I was just, uh, I was just reaching out today to somebody that I had had on, I think she was, like, episode 61.I just, I don’t, I remember the number right now.Julia Mattera, who, um, she is a performance artist who works very closely with nature.Mm-hmm.And one of the performance pieces that she did was she spent 3 days in nature, just in nature.Like, she didn’t have a tent, she didn’t have anything, she didn’t really bring anything with her.She spent 3 days trying to s- to a certain extent, um, break, I don’t wanna say break down because that’s not even right, but, like, blur the line, let’s say it that way, between her human self and, and her, her, um, natural self.Like, in other words, blur the lines so that her humanity wasn’t over- overcoming or, um, more dominant than her animal instincts or her plant stillness and her presence and all these other parts of herself, but trying to find a different balance where the human becomes, kind of, just part of that flow.And for her, one of the ways that she did it was as this performance experiment where people could come out and see and, and, you know, be around her, but she was just basically in nature.Like, in, period.And she was talking about how in some ways she wishes she would’ve been longer ’cause I think she did it for 3 days, and she said it was by the third day, she was supposed to reach this point.Like, part of it was for her to be in this experience and that she was gonna- supposed to cut across a field to reach to an area.But she says in those 3 days that she was in this and, you know, she was rolling around and just trying to be part of the landscape, be an element of the landscape.And it was just really fascinating as things in her perception started to change, the way that she experienced it, where it wasn’t longer, “I’m in nature.”But like, “I am nature.”It’s that subtle shift that happens.And, and I think that that’s really what a lot of us are trying to feel.I, uh, I study with somebody who, we talk about the Hebrew letters but from that mystical perspective, and he says, “You cannot understand any kind of mystical”It doesn’t matter if you’re talking about the Bible, if you’re talking about the Torah, if you’re talking about any kind of, you cannot understand any of this without having a mystical experience in nature.All of these types of books or deep philosophies and, and even the original birthrights of, of what we call today religions, all come from spending deep amount of time immersed in nature until you sort of blend in and that part of you kinda comes up.Something that, like we said from the very beginning of our conversation, our current physical, especially urban spaces, do not allow for anymore.Mm-hmm.like, so rare that we can have that kind of experience in an urban space.Um, Stephen, uh, Stephen Keller wrote a book called, I think it’s called Birthrights, I think is what it’s called.I can’t remem- it’s eluding me right now.But he talks about a city, um, that, where the city is built in a way where the natural flow of all the animals and, and plants has not been taken out of the city.Hmm.So, for example, once a year there’s a giant migration of, I don’t remember what it was, elk or something, and it happens through the city because the city didn’t cut the path off, but instead integrated the path.So there’s like- Hmm.points where humans can be a little bit more safe but that doesn’t impede at all what’s happening in this giant migration.And he talks about other little elements that like, as if, you know, the humans are in the forest they’re still human city, but there’s a forested city and so there’s thisAnd how the humans also stop to give space for this migration that happens for this, like, long, um, per- you know, all these animals walking through because it’s part of the natural rhythm.And I feel like what you’re talking about is that, is facilitating people in a shorter period of time because not everybody can give themselves, you know, whatever, 6 months to live in the, in the jungle, to give themselves an opportunity to re-tap into that part of themselves and then bring it back home with them.Like, you’re more than what you’re doing right now.You are so much more and all these other things sort of feel small and insignificant when you allow yourself to be the fullness of what you are.Yeah, it’s beautifully said and I love that, I love that, um, city with the nature going through it.Like, that’s, that’s exactly it.Like, um, I think for me people see ecopsychology as a subset of psychology, right?And for me it’s a completely different thing.I think a lot of traditional psychology is meant to help us kind of pacify and feel comfortable in the world as it is, in our human made worlds, and we just kind of like get more in touch with ourselves while almost to an extent ignoring the larger cultural context of everything that’s happening and not focusing anything about our environments, um, you know, and like how that impacts us.Um, you know, whereas ecopsychology is really breaking away from all that and then, and then really finding something pure and true about ourselves and, and connecting with that.And then, um, the real work, like, that’s the, that’s the driving force of change, but the real work happens when people go back to their, to their world and how do, um, how do I bring this thing that I found into the culture?And that is a struggle.Especially in a, in a culture that doesn’t necessarily value it, you know?Right.Like, the way that they don’t, that we, a lot of people just don’t value nature until it’s cut down and logged.Like, you know, like the river’s dammed or any- like, until it serves us, you know?Right.And it’sAnd yeah, I think that’s, that’s the, just that city that’s, has nature flowing through it.We have the ability to do that.We could and it’s beautiful.Like, I don’t know that there’s anyone who wouldn’t want something like that.We’re just kinda stuck on this other way of thinking that if we play this human game long enough and do well enough, then we’ll eventually get there, and I think even that’s, at this point, I think less and less people are believing that.Um, but yeah, so what’s the alternative, right?Is to really just let go of that, find yourself, and then come back and bring that into the culture, and that’s a struggle, especially the less of us there are who are actually doing that, who are actually living this into the world.And the more people who really find that and really bring that into the, into their lives, and, you know, a big thing that I, that I’m trying to bring forward is the community around what this is and this integration.Like, that’s, if you ask most, uh, most people in the psychedelic world what the biggest part of it is, is, is it’s not the visions that you have and those experiences.Yes, it’s important to have that and recognize that and kinda capture it, those are only clues to how you can really start to make a shift in your life.And then you bring that into the world and, you know, kind of live into that and make mistakes and trial and error and, you know, find what works.Yes.And then back to that, once you’ve gone through that, then come back to medicine.Don’t just medicine, medicine, medicine, medicine.Come back and then do it again and reconnect with nature again and kind of like speak it to the world.Say, “This is, this is where I’m at.This is what I’m, you know, what I’m struggling with and what I’ve done well,” and like, you know, and tell it how beautiful it is.Tell it, tell it how much you appreciate it, ofOf course.All the things, things.You know?And enjoy it.But- Thanks.yeah.The struggle’s real too.It is, and this is the reason why I created The Naturally Conscious Community.My online community is exactly for that because you can have an experience in, in so many different ways, but if you don’t have a safe community to bring that back, to start experimenting, to feel safe enough to change things in your own life, to make mistakes, to try things, to reopen you and inspire you on a regular basis in that nature connection, I think that that’s, that’s the real difficulty like for most people is you have this beautiful experience, but then it becomes a memory rather than something that really is life-changing and life-sustaining.And what I love about being a coach is, and, and being a coach with that focus, is I like working with people long term.I really enjoy when a person gives themselves the space and the permission, that’s the reason why, you know, yeah, I have like, uh, a 4month starter program, but m- my, my favorite program is a year because- Mm-hmm.in that year with the, with working one-on-one with me, you have someone like you where they have the experience of it, and then they come into a space like mine where they can be like, “Okay, well, this is what’s coming up to me and this is what’s coming up for me.”And then they also have the Naturally Conscious Community as a community of people where they can be like experimenting with things and seeing it reflected in other people and knowing that they’re not alone ’cause it’s not enough for me to say, “You’re not alone,” but when you see that there’s, you know, a few hundred other people who are also doing this, experimenting, stretching themselves, and then that’s why I put all these different programs together s- to also apply different ways of the way we think.You know, writing and creativity groups so that I can get it out of myself in ways that are non-linear or that- Mm-hmm.not so much tied to what I know today.Books because there’re so many amazing nature-inspired books that are coming out that help us see things through fiction and non-fiction in other ways.You know, big discussions and meditations and the idea that there’s a little bit of everything that is all kind of holding that space for you to continue that deep connection with nature and that allows you to say things, like you said, that are weird, that are like, we call ourselves weird and woo because that’s the way it is, you know?A lot of this stuff isn’t part of our day-to-day, but I wanna talk about the fact that, uh, my boss just said this to me, and I felt like super disconnected and then you know, I, I, uh, sat with my office plant and had a deep conversation, and this is what came up.What do you all think about this?we want to bring this in, but it’s not an overnight piece.I think work that you do is so important to get people, like you said, moving, to give them a new paradigm and make them see that there is a different way, and then to have whatever they might choose, whether it’s to work with somebody like me or to work with an ecopsychologist that they really can work with over time and then come back, like you said, to that experience and expand and try something new.I feel like this is really the way forward.It’s not gonna happen in the snap of the fingers.It’s not gonna happen- Mm-hmm.overnight.It happens when you give yourself that permission to have, to start to evolve, to transform over time, and you give yourself the opportunity to, to really let this seep into all parts of your life.Yeah.No, that’s, that’s very well put, and I’m glad you’re doing, doing that work.That’s phenomenal.Yeah.it’s, uh, it’s kinda, I mean, and we, I think we have a little similarity, and it’s funny.The whole idea of evolution, and I think people have a different idea of what that is, that we’re gonna be like robotic- Yeah, exactly.metaphoric drawing people or something like that, and that’s just such a like, we’re not gonna make it much further on this track, I don’t think.Our evolution is not that way, you know?Right.W- and the name of the company is Evolve Wild because our evolution happens when we take this incredible technological and in- intellectual awareness we’ve achieved and really kind of let thatlet the wild piece of us, that connection with the wild guide the way so that we can start to implement this, these amazing skills that people have, um, these amazing technology, and like so that we can start to use that in a way that’s in harmony with our humanity and with the natural world, and I think that’s a beautiful way of living, and I think that’s absolutely what I would call evolution, um, not this robot-driven, you know, mega city lifestyle, whatever.Exactly.I’m- It’s, it’s not it.completely in agreement with you on that.The road to nowhere.So you said it, but I, as we’re wrapping up here, I want you to tell, so everybody knows, so your website is Evolve Wild.Your, your, um, business is, well, company, whatever, the entity- The legal entity.the legal entity is Evolve Wild, which, of course, I am going to put into the show notes.Is there anything else, any last parting words that you wanna share with everybody about, you know, this huge thing that we’ve gone through?go, go just, go do an event.Go grow.Grow.Go do it.Yeah, I mean- Grow.there is that.Um, and there’sOh, gosh.There’s just so much overwhelm at this point, I think, you know?Um, and there’s just so much, and really just, just do things that reignite your soul.Do things that you love.it’s all about love.We’re not gonna get there through being afraid of what’s gonna happen.We’re gonna get there by, by finding what we love and following that.I love that.That’s absolutely beautiful.Erik, thank you so much.Mm-hmm.I am so glad- Thankwe did this.This has been- me too.I knew it, I knew it, I knew it.I was like, “I’m just gonna””get him on.I’m gonna hit the record button, and I know it’s gonna come out of him.”I know it.Yeah, with my squeaky chair and weird background.It’s all good.Whatever.This is the truth of it.This is what happens, you know?I was in the the same boat.Like, is this even gonnaBut this is a fantastic conversation.Yeah, super happy about it.So thank you so much.Oh,And for everybody listening, please go check out, like I said, Evolve Wild is Erik’s work, and you can come out, and have an amazing experience, and also- You gottaafterwards, come and check out, yeah, you gotta head out to Oregon, but Oregon’s beautiful, so it’s all worth it to do it.absolutely gorgeous.Yeah, exactly.Totally.And then when you’re done, come over to the Naturally Conscious community so that you can keep having these conversations and, you know, we’re a great tag team, right?Yeah.You work with somebody like Erik.Mm-hmm.you come and you work with me, and we’re gonna keep evolving, and always, always, always remember to resist the urge to hold back your emerging green brilliance.That’s it for us.Bye.See you.Thanks for tuning in to this episode of Reconnect With Plant Wisdom.To continue these conversations, join us in the Naturally Conscious community, your premier online ecosystem for plant reawakening and accelerated evolution in co-creation with otherkin.Here, you’ll find expansive discussions, interactive courses, live events, and supportive group programs like the Plant Wisdom Book Club and the Sprouts Writing and Creativity Group.Connect with like-minded individuals collaborating with plants to integrate these insights into life.Intro and outro music by Steve Schullie and Poinsettia from The Singing Life of Plants.That’s it for me, Tigria Gardenia, and my plant collaborators.Until next time, remember, resist the urge to hold back your emerging green brilliance.I’m out.Bye.