Ep.114 Healing the Original Trauma: Disconnection with Julie Brams

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Hello, hello, hello, everyone.

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Welcome back to another episode of Reconnect With Plant Wisdom.

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It’s me, Tigrilla Gardenia.

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This is such a good episode, such a, such a good episode, such a good epi- Can you, can you hear my enthusiasm?

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Julie Brams is going to blow your mind.

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Like, if you’ve ever wondered about terms like ecopsychology and forest therapy and why neuropsychology and why any of this stuff has anything to do with the Earth, with plants, with the natural world, then this is the episode for you.

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We got into such a great discussion that really helps kind of put a vocabulary around many of the things that we feel, both what we feel like we’re missing when it comes to our inherent disconnection as well as where we want to go as a collective and the fact that we really, as beings of nature, are never ever alone.

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There is so much I could tell you about this, but really I’m just gonna let the conversation speak to itself, speak for itself, better said.

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And so with that I’m gonna leave you to episode 114, Healing the Original Trauma: Disconnection, with Julie Brams.

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Welcome to Reconnect With Plant Wisdom.

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I’m your host, Tigrilla Gardenia, nature-inspired mentor, certified life coach, and founder of the Naturally Conscious Community.

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For over a decade, I’ve been known as a world ambassador for plant advocacy, working closely with plants to share their practical wisdom to help you consciously embody the elements of life that nourish your evolution.

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In this podcast, I delve into ancient and modern knowledge from biology to spirituality about the wondrous ways of plants.

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Together we’ll explore how ecosystem thinking helps you overcome limiting beliefs, understand the true nature of relationships, and live an authentic, impactful life.

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Julie, I am so excited to have this conversation.

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I have been waiting.

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As a matter of fact, it’s really funny ’cause I, um, uh, I’ve been kind of traveling in these days and I kept looking at my calendar going, “When is my meeting with her?”

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Like, “When is this gonna be, this interview?”

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‘Cause I was so looking forward to all these different pieces that you’re working on.

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But before we, we get into all of the details, which I’ve got tons of questions already prepared, tell everybody, like, who is Julie Brams?

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Okay.

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Well, I think, um, primarily I’m a, a mental health professional.

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I’ve been a mental health professional for over 30 years, and, um, you know, my career led me into social activism, you know?

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And when I was really, um, you know, when I came into the field, I was, you know, have a deep, deep love for our Earth, and a real fascination with human consciousness, and, um, you know, so, my career was really f- formed with those, those foundations of, um, wanting to really understand, you

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know, what causes human beings to suffer and what relieves that suffering and how can we as human beings co-exist on this planet, you know, live in Earth, uh, respectfully, responsibly, joyfully.

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You know, I kind of never gave up on this idea that I don’t think humans are supposed to be this destructive, you know?

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I really, like, forever was like, “I just, I don’t think that’s right.

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I think something’s-

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wrong, you

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And so I kind of had that passion in me, um, to try to figure that out, and, you know, somewhere along the way it just kind of like this, duh, we have a really distorted core premise that humans are separate from nature, superior to nature, are supposed to, you know, like sometimes it’s like be the shepherds

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of or caretake, but mostly it’s presented as dominate.

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Yep.

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You know, to take what we need and the planet is here for our wellbeing.

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It’s very human-centric.

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And we know that not all cultures believe this.

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That’s very much a Western civilization kind of premise.

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Mm-hmm.

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And it’s not only untrue, but it’s, you know, it’s delusional.

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You know?

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So as a mental health professional, I’m like, wait a second.

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You know?

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How can we keep treating all of these things, anxiety, depression, addiction, all of the things that really, really hurt human beings, um, without addressing this core faulty belief?

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Mm-hmm.

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So, I know there is a f- kind of like a side field I would say called ecopsychology.

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Many people know of it.

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It’s been around for decades, but again, as a professional that’s also been involved for decades, it never comes into the mainstream.

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Mm-hmm.

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And that again was very shocking to me.

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How is this like this sub-field when it’s really pointing to a foundational cognitive distortion?

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So, umThe other thing that occurred to me was, okay, you can understand that, but how do you treat it?

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Mm-hmm.

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What would be the, you know, quote unquote medicine for that?

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And so I also started this campaign to find something that was reliable, standardized, repeatable because although I’m in a soft science, it’s a science.

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Mm-hmm.

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And I don’t personally feel comfortable making things up, and I don’t mean that in a negative way because obviously the people that came before me were mavericks and they were like, yes, they also noticed what I noticed.

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And they, um, set out to create ways to heal people.

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Joanna Macy is one of the- Mm-hmm.

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foundational, uh, people in this field.

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Um, but I personally was like, I don’t feel that, I don’t have that maverickness in me.

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I have more like, show me what it is and then I’ll do what I can do.

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So, um, it led me to a practice that a man named Amos Clifford developed.

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Yeah, through

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and hi- his, uh, company or his

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yeah, I guess it’s a company, The Association of Nature and Forest Therapy.

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I just, I was just looking through the latest email that came through my inbox, like, 3 minutes before we started.

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Yeah.

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And when I found his work, what he had created based on his life experience, um, he combined it with Shinrin-Yoku, which is a Japanese practice that people are starting to know about, which translates in English to forest bathing, which is bathing in the atmosphere of the forest.

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You know, not water, but in the atmosphere.

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Mm-hmm.

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Um, and his work as a, a therapist and a Zen Buddhist and wilderness tracking and, you know, he pulled all these things together.

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And it’s amazing where it is now.

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I was trained as cohort 16 and I think now- Wow.

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now they’ve left the numbers behind.

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Yeah, there are names now.

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Yeah.

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But I, you know, not, not the very beginning, but pretty, pretty new.

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And now, like, where they are is just incredible.

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Yep.

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So, anyway, once I had this how, I thought, “Oh, okay.

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I can bring this back to my profession and say it’s not only that we have to, um, figure out how to change this thought, but that there is already an established practice of how to allow humans and nature to repair their relationship by being together.”

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You know?

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That it’s, again, it’s de-centering the human and centering earth.

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So, I kind of took it upon myself to rename what I’m doing to earth centered psychology because I felt like that’s really a more, um, understandable title because when I would say to people ecopsychology they would go, “Oh yeah, recycling.”

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I’m like, “No-” That’s fantastic.

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not about recycling.”

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And I was just like, whew, okay this is not landing anywhere near- No.

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the target.

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So, when I started to say earth centered psychology people are like at least they’re like, “Oh, what is that?”

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You know?

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Exactly.

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There is this innate longing, I think, that we have to be connected with the other than human beings in a way that I still believe is deeply ingrained in each of us that we, we long for it.

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Um, there’s another man, um, Clémence Arve and he wrote- Mm-hmm.

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wrote a book, Biophilia.

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Yeah, Biophilic Effect.

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Yeah.

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have it in Italian, it was gifted to me.

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Yeah.

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And he talks about that, this biophilia that we have, as human beings, a hardwired love- Mm-hmm.

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of the other than humans.

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We’re just, and a- again, I wanna specify, like, Western culture has been cut from that hard-wiring, although we can’t be, but in, you know, mentally- Hence our problems.

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Yeah.

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Hence our problems.

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Yeah.

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Because we can’t be, but we are.

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Right, it’s psychological problem.

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Exactly.

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Right?

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And so we’re cut from that and then shamed and, of course, there was that point in history, you know, Byzantine Empire, where there were anti-pagan laws.

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You know?

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Mm-hmm.

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If you felt you were part of nature or you felt that nature was sentient, you would be killed so

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Not just shamed, which we do now, like, “Oh, what are you?

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A tree-hugger?”

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Like, there’s a lot of shaming towards anyone who dares to remember- Right.

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their relationship.

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anyway, that’s a long answer of- No, i- it’s great.

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my- I’m glad that you, I’m glad that you touched on all these elements because, so- Yeah.

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I, uh, as a, as a, instead of, as a coach and mentor, I’m very careful with my clients, um, to sort of, I don’t wanna say differentiate ’cause that’s not the right word, but to complement, for example, the, the, the psychological side.

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In other words, you know, I’m not a therapist in that way and I’m very, I’m very open with my clients.

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Many of my clients, for different reasons, work with, you know, psychologists or different kinds of therapists.

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And I love it because we often work together.

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We, we work in, in tandem and, you know, each one of us with our own piece of the different puzzle.

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And I love it when I do have the opportunity, which unfortunately is rarer than I wish, to also that my client is working with a therapist, you know, a psychologist who has that kind of background, that nature-inspired background, because I think it really does inform.

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It- it- it makes the, the kind of flow between us, the looking at the past and the future, the, the cognitive side versus the behavioral, like all these different elements flow so much more because we all kind of have a systems approach at that point.

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So we’re looking at this as, okay, you’re in the middle of an ecosystem, you have some elements that are being worked on in this side of the ecosystem and others in this side of the ecosystem, but it’s all still one system and we have to work together.

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And I think that that’s, that’s such an important aspect of this type of work.

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Um, and so I’m glad that you sort of brought a little bit also the history to it, because I do think that there is still a lack of understanding around the whole concept of ecopsychology.

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Even myself, I’ve been a part of several

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I’m, uh, like I said, I’m not a therapist but I’ve been inside of different groups that are ecopsychology.

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And even within them there’s this weird variation and, like, some it’s just, “Oh, I do psychology and nature.”

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And I’m like, “Uh, uh, that, that doesn’t sound right to me.”

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Like

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Exactly.

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No offense to you but that just doesn’t sound, that’s not enough.

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Like thank you but n- nah, no.

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so

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It’s

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And, and we have these conversations and it’s really interesting about it.

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You touched on something that I’d love to kind of unpack if you’re, if you’re willing to go there with me a little bit which is, um, I was just, uh, I- I was actually interviewed for a different podcast today and at the very end she asked, uh, you know, one of those types of questions like, “What’s that one message that you wanna-” Mm-hmm.

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“li- leave, the, the one thing that has become clear to you in working with plants?”

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And I said, “Oh, that’s super easy.

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3 words.

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I am nature.”

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And, you know, pe- a- and that’s it.

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Like that’s the resounding message is there is no difference between myself and the swallows that are up in the air, to the plants that are sitting in my house, to Gary the silver fern that’s right outside my window.

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Like we are all beings of this Earth and we’re, we live in relationship and harmony to it.

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I’d love for you to kind of help us understand, m- I’m gonna try to word the question correctly which is, where does the psychology of it, and the sense of

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Where would you recommend?

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I guess maybe that’s a good place to start.

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Where would you recommend somebody to come into from a psychology perspective?

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Is it, is it more of a, uh, where it is that you are finding that people are experiencing the most amount of hardship, such as anxiety, like you said, in all these pieces, and where does that kind of nature-inspired or Earth-inspired, in your case, the way that you worded it, which I think is such a beautiful terminology, where does that fit into, to the work?

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Where, how do you bring it into the work?

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Yeah.

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It’s a really important question and it’s, it’s not exactly simple.

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You know?

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No.

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This is why I wrote the book because

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Let me try to answer the question ’cause a lot of things are coming up for me.

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Mm-hmm.

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Um, one of the things is that, uhYeah.

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I ha- ha- I wrote the book because I was speaking to a lot of therapists who wanted to be nature informed, let’s say- Mm-hmm.

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but they still held themselves as the therapist.

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Mm-hmm.

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They were still in a construct of domination where they use therapy to help them help the person, right?

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So that’s what you were talking about, “I do therapy in nature.”

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Yeah, that’s not it at all.

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No.

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You can do that, but that’s not the repair.

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Right.

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That is just continuing with a little extra tool in your toolkit, which I don’t like because again, right, it’s fundamentally opposed to respecting other-than-human beings as their own- Mm-hmm.

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sovereign being rather than a tool in your toolkit.

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Yeah.

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So, um, I spend a lot of time really trying to

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Y- what I recommend to a therapist is that they become a, a guide and that they actually do go through ANFT’s course.

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I know that sounds really, um, prescriptive and people are like, “Why are you saying them?”

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And it’s true.

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There are an awful lot of other nature therapy organizations that can train you to be a guide.

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Great.

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But I know Amos’s work, and I’ve been through the training, and I know it’s

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I know the design.

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I know how it works.

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I know that it works.

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And one of the first things it does is it un- it, it, it allows the guide to unlearn that they’re, they’re not the center.

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They’re not where the healing takes place.

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They are there to open the doors.

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Like Amos’s tagsli- tagline is, “The guide opens the doors, the forest is the medicine.”

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Mm-hmm.

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So you’re connecting people to repair their relationship with all the other-than-human beings.

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You’re not doing therapy on them.

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Right.

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And so this idea of what do you do when someone’s anxious, it’s like, yes, we do all the things we do when someone’s anxious, but this is getting at what I believe.

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And not, not just me, obviously, right?

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Mm-hmm.

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But I’m saying underneath it is this core, like, corrupted belief that’s at the root of the anxiety and the depression and the whatever.

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So it’s not

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Y- you can’t skip that step.

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Like you would

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must go outside of yourself as the therapist, lead your people to their relationship, like we talked about, a system, an ecosystem.

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And from my licensure as a mar- a marriage and family therapist, it’s a family system.

200
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Mm-hmm.

201
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So it’s like you’ve got all these family members out there that you never speak to, you never look at, you walk past, maybe you pick because, “Oh, I love it.

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I’m bringing it inside.”

203
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You know?

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Like it’s so weird.

205
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Like if you treated other people like that, which some people do treat other people like that and it’s outrageous.

206
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Um, so the therapist, let’s say, if you are a mental health professional, you have to work hard to get out of your role.

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Most forest therapy guides are not therapists.

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They’re guides.

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They are people who have trained to understand how to let the other-than-humans take the lead in rebuilding your relationship, your kinship with them.

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Even some guides can’t get to that because we are so narcissistic as a species.

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We think that everything, you know, make or break is all on a human being.

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And it’s like, are you kidding me?

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We haven’t been here long enough to think we know all the answers.

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So please learn how to listen to a rock- Mm-hmm.

215
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or a stream, or trees, you know?

216
00:20:41,919 –> 00:20:59,719
And again, it’s like breaking through this, some of the conditioning that we have, mental, psychological conditioning to think, “I can’t do that,” to think, “That’s crazy,” or to think

217
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Because it goes back to that core wound, you know, of, yeah, if you, if you practice this, you’re gonna be executed.

218
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So anyway, not to get too dramatic, but

219
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No, no, but I th- I think that’s a great way of putting it.

220
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I oftentimes with my own clients talk about or, you know, I describe my work as using

221
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Using, not the right word.

222
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That’s not where I wanted to start.

223
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Yeah.

224
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Working with plants to step out of the human mind and into the plant mind, in other words, going into plantness, because to a certain extent, you know, plants are our world, so it’s safe.

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It’s a safe way of, of like stepping outside of the, the confines of the rigid rules that we’ve been taught and stepping into the plant mind in order to then flip around and come back into the human mind, but from a different perspective.

226
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And I think the hardest, hardest, hardest part that I see that even worked, you know, even I experienced it pretty deeply was, we are s- to a certain extent, you know, taught from when we’re very little, use your words, right?

227
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Use your words.

228
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But so much of this is not about using your words.

229
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It’s about getting out of the words because the words have been corrupted at, for a while.

230
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So you kinda have to step out of the words to go back into the feelings that we no longer trust, right, to, to experience that profound silence that, that you experience in

231
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Which is, of course, not quiet.

232
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It’s a different thing that you experience in the natural world and with natural beings of whatever type, whether that’s, again, sitting outside and listening.

233
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I’m, I have a beautiful, uh, display of acrobatics by swallows happening outside my window, and, and swallows are relatively quiet compared to many other types of birds.

234
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But, you know, there’s wind, there’s all these different things.

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When we, when we finish here, I’m definitely gonna be sitting on the, the patio just watching and experiencing and allowing that to speak to me in a way that is outside of the way the human mind works, that is the interaction with Gary the silver fur and these swallows who meet every single year, ’cause every year I get to experience this, and feel that relationship, feel what that is, to then

236
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come back into my own human relationships and give that space for that silence and for that feeling of things and then th- so that when I do relearn my words, they no longer have those connotations that they used to have.

237
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And I think for a lot of people, that silence is extremely uncomfortable.

238
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It’s, it’s, i- i- and especially in a therap- therapy s- space where we’re con- we’re conditioned against to sit on the couch, tell me what you’re feeling, talk through all your emotions, which talk therapy has its merits, but but there’s more, and your body has a lot of knowledge, of that residual knowledge that you just talked about, right, the, the fact that I am nature and I’m connected to nature, and therefore my body knows a lot more than my human mind

239
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knows.

240
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A- and so, so I, I, I do, I c- completely understand what you’re saying, which is, you know, we need to have more of these spaces where, like you said, you can “listen,” quote unquote with a whole body, full senses, full perception listen to the rock, listen to the stream, and, and feel what that is and be okay in the, in the lack of words.

241
00:24:46,799 –> 00:24:46,864
Exactly.

242
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I think you just hit it perfectly.

243
00:24:52,719 –> 00:24:57,159
You know, it’s embodied, you know?

244
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So where it’s true like our language matters, you know, I t- talk about that too, like changing some of the language to help us align better.

245
00:25:09,619 –> 00:25:21,199
Like instead of saying, you know, “Me in nature,” it’s, “Me as nature with the rest of nature” begins to reshape our thinking.

246
00:25:21,199 –> 00:25:21,899
Mm-hmm.

247
00:25:21,899 –> 00:25:23,159
But you’re absolutely right.

248
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It’s this, not about thinking.

249
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It’s about being embodied in our Earth body, you know?

250
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Our body is still connected to the Earth.

251
00:25:33,839 –> 00:25:50,939
Whether our mind is or not, our body is going to feel what’s happening to us as Earth, um, which again, is where I think the disruptions come, because our bodies are suffering as our Earth is suffering.

252
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Our bodies, because like you said, we are Earth, suffers too.

253
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It can’t be outside, as much as we think, our body’s never going to be outside of the rest of nature or outside of Earth.

254
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Right.

255
00:26:08,418 –> 00:26:20,400
UmSometimes when I’m talking, you know, if, let’s say it’s indoors, um, and I’ll ask people, “Are we in nature?”

256
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And m- most often people- Yes.

257
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will say no.

258
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And I’m like, “B- you’re in your body.

259
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You are always in nature.”

260
00:26:31,629 –> 00:26:31,710
Right.

261
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You are nature.

262
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You can’t ever be outside of nature.

263
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As humans, right, like you said, we’re taught to overthink or to value thinking over sensation.

264
00:26:44,168 –> 00:26:44,528
Mm-hmm.

265
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This is part of where, like, Vipassana meditation kind of informs one’s ability to be embodied, so I think that’s also a great foundational skill to know the difference between thinking and sensing.

266
00:27:02,049 –> 00:27:13,689
You know, in ANFT-style forest therapy, one of the first invitations is tuning into your s- senses, you know, at least the 5.

267
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Like, there are so many more, but- Right.

268
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what does this place sound like?

269
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What does this place smell like?

270
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You know, d- is that pleasurable?

271
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Like, c- reconnecting us, um, because again, we’ve been through different, um, what do you call it?

272
00:27:34,009 –> 00:27:38,249
Like, different, uh, I’m just gonna say politics.

273
00:27:38,249 –> 00:27:38,729
Mm-hmm.

274
00:27:38,729 –> 00:27:42,629
You know, we’ve been shamed out of our bodies.

275
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Right.

276
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Bodies are sinful, especially female bodies, you know?

277
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So all of that has to be unlearned as well that we can s- l- love being embodied again whatever our body’s condition is in, you know, even if parts of it aren’t working the way we would like, or- Right.

278
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we’re missing a part of it, or whatever it is to, to experience life through sensation at least as a choice.

279
00:28:16,569 –> 00:28:18,149
It’s not about not thinking.

280
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That’s not possible.

281
00:28:19,189 –> 00:28:21,246
That’s not recommended, you know?

282
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But we want to know the difference between this is me thinking about something and this is me sensing that thing.

283
00:28:29,949 –> 00:28:39,632
Like you were saying, listening to a s- stream or a water source is going to be a sensory listening.

284
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Of course you have hearing.

285
00:28:42,789 –> 00:28:47,329
You’ll hear it, but it’s full body listening, you know?

286
00:28:47,329 –> 00:28:58,769
Yeah, I’m glad that you brought up that whole conc- the, the understanding of the senses because I think that that’s another piece that science is slowly catching up on.

287
00:28:58,769 –> 00:29:06,549
As you were saying earlier how, you know, of course there’s some things that you want them to be grounded in some form of methodology and understanding.

288
00:29:06,549 –> 00:29:18,749
I have the, the benefit of being a little bit more free in that being that I live in one of the world’s largest spiritual communities and, you know, I work on the confines of that, but I’m also a, a pretty grounded in science type of person.

289
00:29:18,749 –> 00:29:26,188
And actually right now, I just the other day was teaching a lesson for the Damanhur Alchemy School, and the lesson was on recovering lost senses.

290
00:29:26,188 –> 00:29:47,329
And it was really taking the approach of besides the fact that the 5 senses that we have, if we look at them again through the plant lens and we understand how plants experience, you know, the sense of s- uh, the sense of sight, or the sense of hearing, or the sense of, um, taste, it is so much more expansive than what we humans currently live.

291
00:29:47,329 –> 00:30:05,438
I mean, we, we really narrow the band down on so many aspects, and one of the things I’ve loved about every kind of forest therapy and forest bathing experience that I’ve ever had is that, and as well as what I teach when I take people out to communication with the plant world ’cause it’s really, it’s very, very similar.

292
00:30:06,159 –> 00:30:18,000
It’s a slightly different variation of the same thing, um, and it’s this concept of in that, in that natural setting where, again, my body starts to resonate with my true essence, right?

293
00:30:18,000 –> 00:30:28,379
With the fact that I am earthbound, I am part of this nature and natural environment, so it’s almost like I can shut off some of those constraints inside of this forest environment.

294
00:30:28,379 –> 00:30:54,160
And then in each one of these invitations and the way that I’m, I’m, um, brought into contact allows me to, when I sit by the stream and I, quote unquote, “hear,” I’m not just hearing the same way as I would hear, I don’t know, as I’m walking through a city where I’m actually shutting down a lot of aspects of my hearing because, you know, the noise, because of this, because I don’t want to eavesdrop on people’s conversations, because I’m lost in this, blah, blah.

295
00:30:54,719 –> 00:30:55,680
It’s the opposite.

296
00:30:55,680 –> 00:31:08,959
It’s the, okay, let’s assume that I had full range of my hearing as a being of nature and then from there, where does my body lead me to naturally, quote unquote, “listen” to?

297
00:31:08,959 –> 00:31:14,399
So my hearing is completely amplified, and my listening is specified.

298
00:31:14,399 –> 00:31:15,679
So rather than

299
00:31:15,679 –> 00:31:17,239
And so it’s a conscious choice.

300
00:31:17,239 –> 00:31:41,579
It’s a conscious awareness and a conscious presence that brings us back into this different level of contact, and, and in this, in this lesson that I teach about, you know, the lost senses, I start with this five, and I even have, like, a little meditation spiri- series up on Insta- Insight Timer and also inside The Naturally Conscious Community, and then go the step beyond which is like, hey, there’s another 15 senses-

301
00:31:41,579 –> 00:31:46,739
that plants have that, you know, most likely, we also have them.

302
00:31:46,739 –> 00:32:00,519
And so how about experie- you know, experimenting a little bit with, you know, these other types of not just, for example, vision, which is pretty much the idea of photoreception and phototropism, but what about heliotropism?

303
00:32:00,519 –> 00:32:05,259
Like, just the connection to sunlight and all of what sunlight involves.

304
00:32:05,259 –> 00:32:25,459
Like, we can just slightly start ex- advancing our awareness and reach some super cool things like, I did a whole episode for the podcast about scototropism which is the, you know, the, the sense of darkness, the idea of I grow and I have a relationship with, with the dark, not absence of light.

305
00:32:25,459 –> 00:32:27,099
Like, I’m not avoiding light.

306
00:32:27,099 –> 00:32:40,119
I am literally moving towards the darkness because there are some plants like Monstera, Monstera that, that really love darkness for a period of their lives, and it’s like, oh, use that for shadow work.

307
00:32:40,119 –> 00:32:42,299
Like, it’s a whole other opposite.

308
00:32:42,299 –> 00:32:48,059
Like, it’s a completely different idea when we start to recognize these parts of ourselves.

309
00:32:48,059 –> 00:32:59,619
Right, and so, like, what you’re describing is these plants operating as your therapist, so to speak.

310
00:32:59,619 –> 00:32:59,739
Right.

311
00:32:59,739 –> 00:32:59,919
Right?

312
00:32:59,919 –> 00:33:06,299
So this is what is the difference between a guide, let’s say, and a human therapist.

313
00:33:06,299 –> 00:33:19,179
The guide would, like you are doing, connecting people with another then human being to let it inform you of how to navigate this place- Mm-hmm.

314
00:33:19,179 –> 00:33:20,286
in the best sense.

315
00:33:21,019 –> 00:33:21,679
You know?

316
00:33:21,679 –> 00:33:24,659
And like you’re saying, it’s, it’s a fact.

317
00:33:24,659 –> 00:33:27,312
We co-evolved with plants.

318
00:33:27,979 –> 00:33:30,099
Of course we have those abilities.

319
00:33:30,099 –> 00:33:33,392
We have been trained a way, and we suffer.

320
00:33:33,985 –> 00:33:34,379
Right.

321
00:33:34,379 –> 00:33:42,099
And I also wanna keep underscoring I really believe they suffer without us.

322
00:33:42,099 –> 00:33:43,439
Mm-hmm.

323
00:33:43,439 –> 00:33:45,479
So it’s not just like

324
00:33:45,479 –> 00:33:51,879
‘Cause a lot of people at this point, I hear, it’s like, “Oh, you know, if the humans are gone, it’ll be better.”

325
00:33:51,879 –> 00:33:52,639
You know?

326
00:33:52,639 –> 00:33:55,600
And it’s like, that’s, again, so narcissistic.

327
00:33:56,066 –> 00:33:56,999
Right.

328
00:33:56,999 –> 00:33:57,019
You

329
00:33:57,019 –> 00:34:00,659
It’s like just take your place in the system, you know?

330
00:34:00,659 –> 00:34:00,819
Right.

331
00:34:00,819 –> 00:34:03,959
You grew here for a reason, you know?

332
00:34:03,959 –> 00:34:07,696
I don’t think we have to get rid of human beings.

333
00:34:08,399 –> 00:34:09,359
It, it, it’s also a

334
00:34:09,359 –> 00:34:21,139
It’s kind of like a, a, a tell at how, how scary and hard it is for a human being to imagine changing their way of being, changing their lifestyle.

335
00:34:21,139 –> 00:34:26,719
It’s like I’d rather kill us all off than let us remember how to reconnect.

336
00:34:26,719 –> 00:34:27,579
Like, really?

337
00:34:27,579 –> 00:34:29,519
‘Cause it’s a lot more fun- I

338
00:34:29,519 –> 00:34:31,038
to reconnect.

339
00:34:31,038 –> 00:34:38,478
I am so glad you said that because I’ve been trying to find the right words for exactly what you just expressed, and I really

340
00:34:38,478 –> 00:34:55,389
I hadn’t thought about it in those exact terms, and I love the way you just, you know, you just described that, because I also see it as a sort of cowardly act to a certain extent, um, of m- I thi- I see it in 2 different ways, I see it, 1, as cowardly.

341
00:34:56,059 –> 00:35:01,099
Cowardly, and I get that most of us don’t have a frame of reference to be able to do it, but I, but it is kinda cowardly.

342
00:35:01,099 –> 00:35:07,979
It’s like, hey, it’s too much work for us to reconnect, so screw it, we should just leave the planet and be done with it and, like, let nature take over.

343
00:35:07,979 –> 00:35:13,199
Um, like, you do realize that nature’s just gonna create another version of us because cre- nature does that, right?

344
00:35:13,199 –> 00:35:14,339
They’re gonna

345
00:35:14,339 –> 00:35:21,239
Th- we’ve had th- the same species evolve in different locations in the planet for a reason.

346
00:35:21,239 –> 00:35:28,038
Like, there are characteristics that we have as beings of nature that are necessary for the order of the world.

347
00:35:28,038 –> 00:35:34,919
Like, yes, we’ve gone out of control, we’re a little rogue, we make a bunch of mistakes, we screw up, but we’re also super young.

348
00:35:34,919 –> 00:35:35,459
We’re like- Yeah.

349
00:35:35,459 –> 00:35:40,399
babies in this ecosystem, we’re like 200,000 years old as a species.

350
00:35:40,399 –> 00:35:44,859
So, I mean, nature kinda cuts us a break too ’cause if not, they would kick us all off already.

351
00:35:44,859 –> 00:35:49,959
They’re like, “You know, let’s give you another chance to kind of evolve into who you should be.”

352
00:35:49,959 –> 00:35:54,399
So one aspect of it is I do think it’s really cowardly, and I do think it is

353
00:35:54,399 –> 00:35:56,720
And this is why I do like working

354
00:35:57,505 –> 00:36:04,705
especially with, like I said, a, a trained therapist, because I don’t do trauma work and, and those types of specifications.

355
00:36:04,705 –> 00:36:10,505
Like, I just don’t have that training, and I respect the person who has learned how to navigate certain types of these things.

356
00:36:10,505 –> 00:36:14,365
So, I know, I know my limitations and have no problems with telling a client, “All right.

357
00:36:14,365 –> 00:36:26,865
We’ve reached a place where either you choose to work with a, a therapist in addition, you know, with- that- with me, but also- or you just choose to work with a therapist for a while, and then we’ll come back when you’re in a different place.”

358
00:36:26,865 –> 00:36:27,904
But I do think that the, uh

359
00:36:27,904 –> 00:36:33,025
because I do think that the biggest piece that’s inhibiting us is a massive amount of fear.

360
00:36:33,025 –> 00:36:39,745
Like, so much of this ang- ang- uh, arrogance that we see comes from this fear of the unknown.

361
00:36:39,745 –> 00:36:47,646
It’s like we’ve forgotten so much, what it feels like to be in this union and this connection, to be able to be

362
00:36:47,646 –> 00:36:54,705
We’ve forgotten that also, if you look at any plant, you can see 2 trees right next to one another, and they are completely different.

363
00:36:54,705 –> 00:37:01,705
Like, if you really look at it, even if they’re the s- even if kin are the same species, they are completely different.

364
00:37:01,705 –> 00:37:07,245
And so there is this, “I am interrelated and yet independent.”

365
00:37:07,245 –> 00:37:13,145
And we keep thinking, “Oh, if I reconnect, that means I lose all of whomever I am.”

366
00:37:13,145 –> 00:37:16,265
And it’s like, no, you just gain all this other stuff.

367
00:37:16,265 –> 00:37:20,272
So, I, I’m so curious as to how do you

368
00:37:20,945 –> 00:37:40,645
I don’t know if the right word is treat, deal with, help, support the innate fear that I think holds back so many people from truly allowing themselves to reconnect, the fear that they’ve screwed up with nature for so long and, “Oh my goodness, what am I gonna do now?”

369
00:37:40,645 –> 00:37:42,885
The fear that, “I don’t know how to act.

370
00:37:42,885 –> 00:37:43,805
What can I eat?

371
00:37:43,805 –> 00:37:44,825
What can I buy?

372
00:37:44,825 –> 00:37:46,245
What am I allowed to wear?

373
00:37:46,245 –> 00:37:47,885
How do I do all these things?”

374
00:37:47,885 –> 00:37:48,485
Like- Right.

375
00:37:48,485 –> 00:38:03,425
how do you see that, that a more eco-Earth-based approach to psychology could really help people with that deep, innate fear of connection, especially if there’s any kind of trauma that’s experienced in their life?

376
00:38:03,425 –> 00:38:03,490
Right.

377
00:38:04,725 –> 00:38:05,125
Right.

378
00:38:05,125 –> 00:38:10,404
That’s a really good question, and I, I kinda wanna go in 2 directions with it.

379
00:38:10,404 –> 00:38:26,352
So, one answer is, you know, how do you deal with the fear of reconnecting is to really amplify or emphasize that this is fun.

380
00:38:27,345 –> 00:38:29,168
Reconnecting is playful.

381
00:38:29,845 –> 00:38:31,024
It’s enjoyable.

382
00:38:31,605 –> 00:38:34,544
It’s something you did as a child.

383
00:38:35,645 –> 00:38:37,616
It’s the way we all start.

384
00:38:39,645 –> 00:38:42,032
So, it’s nothing that you haven’t done before.

385
00:38:42,925 –> 00:38:50,645
It’s something that you loved to do when you were a toddler or younger, you know?

386
00:38:50,645 –> 00:38:53,105
It’s a natural way, and it’s

387
00:38:53,105 –> 00:38:54,645
again, it’s fun.

388
00:38:54,645 –> 00:38:56,285
It’s playful.

389
00:38:56,285 –> 00:39:01,485
There’s, um, nothing, um, scary about it, you know?

390
00:39:01,485 –> 00:39:17,886
The u- the s- the other thing, I think, is doing this in a supported container like what you’re doing or like what, you know, ANFT style does is it’s, it’s a container where you are with other people and you’re held.

391
00:39:18,545 –> 00:39:19,920
Your guide is holding you.

392
00:39:20,965 –> 00:39:25,136
If traumatic material comes up, there’s a way to deal with it.

393
00:39:26,625 –> 00:39:35,824
I feel very comfortable with that because I am trained as a mental health professional, so that hasn’t been like an edge that I’ve had to learn.

394
00:39:36,785 –> 00:39:49,545
Um, but like you said, if something comes up and it’s beyond your scope, you have an- you know, a pro- a mental health professional that’s an ally.

395
00:39:49,545 –> 00:39:50,365
Right.

396
00:39:50,365 –> 00:39:54,288
Um, but that reconnecting, again, is pleasurable.

397
00:39:54,925 –> 00:39:57,785
It’s pleasurable, you know?

398
00:39:57,785 –> 00:40:01,008
So, how do we get past the fear of pleasure?

399
00:40:02,065 –> 00:40:03,185
That’s a big one too.

400
00:40:03,185 –> 00:40:05,005
Yeah, that’s true.

401
00:40:05,005 –> 00:40:05,485
I mean,

402
00:40:05,485 –> 00:40:06,465
Yeah.

403
00:40:06,465 –> 00:40:13,105
So, the other answer to this, I wanna say, is this is part of the discovery.

404
00:40:13,105 –> 00:40:14,224
It’s discoverable.

405
00:40:14,785 –> 00:40:20,445
So, um, this is the exciting part of what is it like to have

406
00:40:20,445 –> 00:40:24,105
like my book is called The Nature-Embedded Mind, right?

407
00:40:24,105 –> 00:40:27,806
What is it like to live with a nature-embedded mind?

408
00:40:29,379 –> 00:40:30,096
We don’t know.

409
00:40:30,562 –> 00:40:31,019
Mm-hmm.

410
00:40:31,019 –> 00:40:32,848
We have to discover it together.

411
00:40:33,659 –> 00:40:36,360
You know, this isn’t about going backward in time.

412
00:40:36,360 –> 00:40:40,432
You know, it’s not about going to live in caves or whatever the heck people think.

413
00:40:41,799 –> 00:40:44,899
You know, our ancestors, you know, we’re not going backward.

414
00:40:44,899 –> 00:41:09,080
We’re staying where we are with technology, with, like you said, big cities where, where our nervous systems are so overloaded that we’re basically jangling around our lives just trying to figure out how to down-regulate, you know, um, to stay with what’s here, the technology and everything that we’ve created, but reconnect.

415
00:41:09,080 –> 00:41:23,679
And then as we do that, together, we learn, we learn what does it mean, you know, to be, um, embodied again at this moment in time.

416
00:41:23,679 –> 00:41:44,624
And, yeah, expanding our, our wisdom to include the wisdom of the rest of our family, our Earth family and then what do we know how to do, and what do we learn about healing our traumas.

417
00:41:45,259 –> 00:41:45,779
You know, I

418
00:41:45,779 –> 00:41:50,800
It’s still, it’s like the, it’s like the main piece that’s missing is this reconnection.

419
00:41:51,540 –> 00:42:06,539
Like, I feel like we cannot talk about any of it until we have the courage to confront the distortions in our thinking, change them, which takes practice, just like any relationship.

420
00:42:06,539 –> 00:42:12,000
If you wanna have a better relationship with your sister, your mother, your spouse, your whatever- Mm-hmm.

421
00:42:12,000 –> 00:42:13,879
you to spend time with them.

422
00:42:13,879 –> 00:42:14,320
Right.

423
00:42:14,320 –> 00:42:17,328
You have to connect with them.

424
00:42:18,099 –> 00:42:32,400
You have to listen, like you said that, and I think that’s the biggest part is that humans learning to listen, listen, not jump to the conclusion of, “What do I think about it?”

425
00:42:32,400 –> 00:42:33,900
Like, just listen.

426
00:42:33,900 –> 00:42:34,339
Right.

427
00:42:34,339 –> 00:42:34,559
Yeah.

428
00:42:34,559 –> 00:42:35,859
Wow, that’s a, that’s a big one.

429
00:42:35,859 –> 00:42:37,499
Biomimicry talks about this a lot.

430
00:42:37,499 –> 00:42:41,939
We call it, um, the, we call it, uh, quiet your cleverness.

431
00:42:41,939 –> 00:42:42,260
Yeah.

432
00:42:42,260 –> 00:42:43,999
Our, our feeling that we have to

433
00:42:43,999 –> 00:42:46,420
We’re clever and therefore we always have a response- Yeah.

434
00:42:46,420 –> 00:42:51,839
and so therefore we, we respond right away and it’s the idea of sitting and really listening.

435
00:42:51,839 –> 00:43:05,679
I love, and I think it’s such an important point that you brought up that I think I forget also to emphasize enough, um, because I live it and so I don’t realize it, which is, this is not about going backwards.

436
00:43:05,679 –> 00:43:05,919
Mm-hmm.

437
00:43:05,919 –> 00:43:24,159
I think that there is this mistaken idea that, you know, as you said earlier, you know, the tree hugger is the person that leaves everything and moves out of the city and goes to live in the middle of nowhere with, you know, no running water and no, no technology and there is so much of that.

438
00:43:24,159 –> 00:43:35,159
And I think that the people mistake the difference between a- avoidance type of technological use or, which you could be anything, right?

439
00:43:35,159 –> 00:43:36,699
It doesn’t even have to be technology, right?

440
00:43:36,699 –> 00:43:54,352
I could be completely disconnected from technology and still being in a trauma-based avoidance type of dangerous perspective and a disconnection because I’m avoiding things versus a fully connected person where, you know, I’ll, spend

441
00:43:54,999 –> 00:43:58,059
I mean, I’ve been working in the, the, the tech world.

442
00:43:58,059 –> 00:44:00,519
I started my career in the tech world, right?

443
00:44:00,519 –> 00:44:03,239
So I’ve been in the tech world since the very beginning.

444
00:44:03,239 –> 00:44:06,179
Since, since we used to call it the internet bubble because it was- Yeah.

445
00:44:06,179 –> 00:44:11,379
just growing, since before things like YouTube and Facebook even existed- Yeah.

446
00:44:11,379 –> 00:44:15,899
and I have been sitting in front of a computer for most of my day since then.

447
00:44:15,899 –> 00:44:27,419
And I still consider myself an extremely connected person because my relationships with the more than human world, with other kin, as well as with humans- Mm-hmm.

448
00:44:27,419 –> 00:44:43,319
it are extremely enriched because to me technology is not a disconnection method and mechanism but on the contrary, I spend so much of my day, like, talking to my family, talking to my clients, talking to other people.

449
00:44:43,319 –> 00:44:57,879
Like, I use con- connection, everything that I’ve learned from the plant world about what it means to create relationships of such a wide variety and technology enhances my ability to do that.

450
00:44:57,879 –> 00:44:58,279
Mm-hmm.

451
00:44:58,279 –> 00:45:11,139
So for me, reconnection has allowed me to create a, a healthy relationship with technology where I don’t doom-scroll like people talk about, but when I’m scrolling, I feel very present.

452
00:45:11,139 –> 00:45:18,519
Every Facebook group or inside of the Naturally Conscious Community, we’ve made super tight connections- Mm-hmm.

453
00:45:18,519 –> 00:45:20,179
where people travel.

454
00:45:20,179 –> 00:45:35,999
I have right in this moment 2 of my, you know, the people who met inside of the Naturally Conscious Community, one of them who lives in the United States went to Italy and then where, you know, she’s come here, and then she went to Germany where another person lives and who’s part of the connect

455
00:45:35,999 –> 00:45:40,559
Because we know each other so well from the connections we’ve created, we talk- Right.

456
00:45:40,559 –> 00:45:51,219
we relate, we experience this whole natural world together that it’s, um, “natural” for them to say, “Well, if I’m traveling, of course I’m gonna go stop by and say hello to you.”

457
00:45:51,219 –> 00:45:52,339
Because, you know- Right.

458
00:45:52,339 –> 00:45:57,939
and we’re gonna be able to do this also in person and walk your land which I feel like I know already.

459
00:45:57,939 –> 00:45:59,099
I know her horses- Mm-hmm.

460
00:45:59,099 –> 00:46:04,459
I know how her land is laid out because we talk about so much the experiences.

461
00:46:04,459 –> 00:46:05,200
So I think that-

462
00:46:06,045 –> 00:46:36,065
what you said about the idea that this isn’t about going backwards, but this is about discovering what it means to be fully connected in 2025 in a technological world, in a world that has, you know, um, the built environment as well as this nature connection built into the built environment, I think is such an important point to emphasize for people who are, again, fearful of, “How, why would I use,

463
00:46:36,065 –> 00:46:41,552
like, I’m gonna go to traditional therapy because I live in a city, so eco-therapy can’t really help me.”

464
00:46:42,165 –> 00:46:45,485
Or, “Forest therapy can’t help me because I don’t live near a forest.”

465
00:46:45,485 –> 00:46:48,945
And it’s like, no, that’s not what we’re talking about.

466
00:46:48,945 –> 00:46:50,625
It’s so much more.

467
00:46:50,625 –> 00:46:51,345
It’s- Right.

468
00:46:51,345 –> 00:47:12,765
changes the way you perceive the world so that you start to recognize again the natural, the nature everywhere, whether we’re talking about the moss that’s growing through the crack or the dandelion that’s in the corner or even, you know, the pocket park or the street tree or any of these types of things, or the, the cat that’s walking around- Right.

469
00:47:12,765 –> 00:47:14,365
like it’s all nature.

470
00:47:14,365 –> 00:47:15,485
Right.

471
00:47:15,485 –> 00:47:15,904
Right.

472
00:47:15,904 –> 00:47:23,865
And I think also, um, like, okay, there were 2 thoughts and they’re running away from me.

473
00:47:23,865 –> 00:47:37,045
But one of them was, um, you know, just remembering that the original trauma is this separation.

474
00:47:37,045 –> 00:47:37,645
Mm-hmm.

475
00:47:37,645 –> 00:47:39,445
That’s the original trauma.

476
00:47:39,445 –> 00:47:58,672
So all the other traumas that we experience, I’m gonna say probably all of them, if we sat down and made a list of all the traumas, I’m gonna say it goes back to this original trauma of being artificially severed from reality.

477
00:47:59,845 –> 00:48:05,936
You know, the reality is our bodies, our nature, our in-nature are connected.

478
00:48:08,002 –> 00:48:19,825
To work against that is hard, it’s uncomfortable, that’s what’s scary, and then all traumas follow.

479
00:48:19,825 –> 00:48:26,485
Because out of that trauma of my body knows it’s connected, but my mind is saying, “No you’re not.

480
00:48:26,485 –> 00:48:27,225
No you’re not.

481
00:48:27,225 –> 00:48:27,945
No you’re not.

482
00:48:27,945 –> 00:48:28,765
No you’re not.

483
00:48:28,765 –> 00:48:29,305
No you’re not.”

484
00:48:29,305 –> 00:48:33,085
It’s like the fucking, oh sorry, but almost- No, you can say it all you want.

485
00:48:33,085 –> 00:48:34,545
I curse all the time, please, please.

486
00:48:34,545 –> 00:48:36,745
It’s the ultimate gaslighting.

487
00:48:36,745 –> 00:48:37,845
It is.

488
00:48:37,845 –> 00:48:44,465
And so all traumas follow from that because we’re off center, you know?

489
00:48:44,465 –> 00:48:46,416
So again, not to

490
00:48:47,525 –> 00:48:57,296
Uh, I’m not minimizing all the traumas that we’ve all been through and need to heal from, but it’s really repairing this that is the foundation.

491
00:48:58,425 –> 00:49:03,085
Everything else is like treating the symptom, it’s putting a Band-Aid.

492
00:49:03,085 –> 00:49:03,105
Mm-hmm.

493
00:49:03,105 –> 00:49:11,325
Your trauma is, you know, your, your identifiable trauma is a, um, reflection of this hidden trauma, you know?

494
00:49:11,325 –> 00:49:13,245
Oh, this is what I wanted to say too.

495
00:49:13,245 –> 00:49:20,505
This is the kind of mindset, ’cause you said, um, like it’s a perceptual shift, you know?

496
00:49:20,505 –> 00:49:25,520
It’s a, it’s th- the kind of a thing, it’s not that easy to see.

497
00:49:26,765 –> 00:49:30,865
But once you see it, you can no longer unsee it.

498
00:49:30,865 –> 00:49:31,485
Mm-hmm.

499
00:49:31,485 –> 00:49:41,385
And once you can’t unsee it, your whole life changes and it’s more pleasant, it’s more comfortable, it’s less traumatic, it’s less frightening.

500
00:49:41,385 –> 00:49:46,845
It’s all the things that we’re like s- looking outside, “Wha- what’s this thing that’s causing all of this?”

501
00:49:46,845 –> 00:49:49,872
It’s like this is what’s causing all of this.

502
00:49:50,529 –> 00:49:51,325
Right.

503
00:49:51,325 –> 00:50:02,448
You know, and I also wanna say because, you know, when I sent my book to beta readers and things, you know, colleagues, clinicians, they were not happy with me.

504
00:50:03,525 –> 00:50:05,985
You know, they were like, “Who are you to say this?”

505
00:50:05,985 –> 00:50:09,965
And, “You’re saying that the field of psychology is all wrong?”

506
00:50:09,965 –> 00:50:11,358
And I’m like, “Yes!

507
00:50:12,325 –> 00:50:12,766
Yeah!”

508
00:50:13,765 –> 00:50:22,404
Not all psychologies, but Western psychology, like for one, there’s other schools of psychology that aren’t- Right.

509
00:50:22,404 –> 00:50:25,159
Western, let’s remember that.

510
00:50:25,159 –> 00:50:35,024
You know, but, um, yeah, I’m, and so I kind of wanna say as a loving challenge to my peers, prove me wrong.

511
00:50:35,819 –> 00:50:36,599
Right.

512
00:50:36,599 –> 00:50:40,208
Let’s heal this one and let’s see, am I wrong?

513
00:50:41,299 –> 00:50:42,736
I would love to be proven wrong.

514
00:50:43,399 –> 00:50:56,862
But I bet you I’m right, and I bet you everybody on some level who isn’t defended, like, I have to defend this idea, knows it’s right.

515
00:50:57,500 –> 00:50:59,319
You know, you get an intuitive hit.

516
00:50:59,319 –> 00:50:59,799
Mm-hmm.

517
00:50:59,799 –> 00:51:01,136
You get an intuition.

518
00:51:01,922 –> 00:51:12,610
People, that’s again, where you, like this ah-ha goes off, especially once you’ve ever gone on a invitation to connect, and you’re just like, “Oh.”

519
00:51:14,519 –> 00:51:15,380
You know?

520
00:51:15,380 –> 00:51:16,912
And this happens every time.

521
00:51:17,919 –> 00:51:25,639
And I try my very best not to, you know, um, like lead them into thinking something, I’m like, “It might be nothing.

522
00:51:25,639 –> 00:51:26,759
I don’t know, it’s all okay.”

523
00:51:26,759 –> 00:51:27,119
Right.

524
00:51:27,119 –> 00:51:30,219
“You might hear nothing, you might hear something, it doesn’t matter.”

525
00:51:30,219 –> 00:51:31,759
And that’s actually true.

526
00:51:31,759 –> 00:51:41,232
Like, we wanna meet everyone where they are in their relationship even if the relationship is so broken, that’s fine, we need to know that.

527
00:51:42,959 –> 00:51:56,619
Um, but just one experience of this starts to remind us of, again, what we knew when we were one, 2, 3 years old.

528
00:51:56,619 –> 00:52:04,679
Many of us keep it, but a lot of us are trained away from this connection.

529
00:52:04,679 –> 00:52:05,659
You know, and the ones- Yeah, and

530
00:52:05,659 –> 00:52:07,376
who have the connection hide it.

531
00:52:08,066 –> 00:52:08,559
“Well, I can’t-” Mm-hmm.

532
00:52:08,559 –> 00:52:10,540
talk about that, I can’t tell anyone.

533
00:52:10,540 –> 00:52:13,360
Can’t tell anyone that I hear what the tree says to me.”

534
00:52:14,140 –> 00:52:19,728
So that’s another thing, when you get a group of people together and you start to hear, “Oh, everybody does that?”

535
00:52:20,380 –> 00:52:25,699
More encouragement to be loud and to say, “Duh, of course.

536
00:52:25,699 –> 00:52:28,272
Of course I can feel what the rock is saying to me.”

537
00:52:29,859 –> 00:52:40,400
I’m so glad that you mentioned this last piece, because it’s another one of those points that I think is so important, is just the same as we are nature and nature is never alone, right?

538
00:52:40,400 –> 00:52:40,420
Mm.

539
00:52:40,420 –> 00:52:49,259
You, you, you don’t have a spot where you see, you know, even if you try to say something like, “This is the lone beaver,” or blah, blah, blah- Mm-hmm.

540
00:52:49,259 –> 00:53:10,699
it’s, it’s not true, because the beaver is with the trees, with the oce- with the water, with the this, with the wa- You know, like, like, we, we just have this way of thinking about stuff that is different, and because of that, we, we do go through, I, I find so many people at the very beginning, I, I, in, inside the Naturally Conscious community, we say that we’re weird and we’re woo.

541
00:53:10,699 –> 00:53:24,319
we say it because we’re like, “Uh, I wanna be proud,” because some, especially depending on where you grew up, what your generation was, who your parents were, you know, type of thing, the idea of being weird and woo was, was bad.

542
00:53:24,319 –> 00:53:25,199
It was like- Right.

543
00:53:25,199 –> 00:53:25,319
“

544
00:53:25,319 –> 00:53:26,859
stop talking about those things.

545
00:53:26,859 –> 00:53:28,499
You don’t hear those things.”

546
00:53:28,499 –> 00:53:32,619
Like, “No, there are no kind of, like, that plant didn’t whisper to you and stuff.”

547
00:53:32,619 –> 00:53:42,679
And so when you do it in a group, and this is what I do love about the fact that, you know, the, uh, the combination of group activities, whether it’s- Yes.

548
00:53:42,679 –> 00:53:58,459
forest bathing and then one-on-one therapy or, like in my case, the Naturally Conscious community as well as one-on-one, you know, mentorship and coaching, I think that that combination for me has always, especially because I live in the community so I have to believe this, if not, I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t live here.

549
00:53:58,459 –> 00:53:58,859
Right.

550
00:53:58,859 –> 00:54:07,059
But it’s like, I think that that’s the winning combination, because it is the, the group gives you a feeling of, “Oh my goodness, I’m really not alone.”

551
00:54:07,059 –> 00:54:08,899
And it’s so many different mirrors.

552
00:54:08,899 –> 00:54:22,279
So I always say, like you said earlier, you’re not learning from me, you’re, you’re learning from everybody, and everybody means every human as well as every, you know, other human type, more than human being.

553
00:54:22,279 –> 00:54:22,538
Right.

554
00:54:22,538 –> 00:54:34,259
And then the other piece is the one-on-one gives you the opportunity to really, like, dive deep into, “Hey, I was hearing this, and this was coming up for me, and I’ve realized that this is something,” and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

555
00:54:34,259 –> 00:54:43,159
And so it gives you that safe space to explore really deeply things that are, you know, primarily connected to your personal experiences.

556
00:54:43,159 –> 00:54:43,499
Yeah.

557
00:54:43,499 –> 00:54:52,259
And then the group to mirror off and to recognize yourself as, as a, a piece of everybody else.

558
00:54:52,259 –> 00:55:04,839
And I think I really see that combination as winning, and I like the fact that for your work, again, it’s not the ecopsychology in the tradit- in the way that I’ve heard it from some others, which is, “I take you in nature,” blah, blah, blah.

559
00:55:04,839 –> 00:55:07,199
And it’s still always a one-on-one relationship.

560
00:55:07,199 –> 00:55:07,519
Yeah.

561
00:55:07,519 –> 00:55:17,639
But it’s instead the group relationship, human and other kin, as well as the one-on-one to give you that dual support- Mm-hmm.

562
00:55:17,639 –> 00:55:20,099
that I think is so important and necessary.

563
00:55:20,099 –> 00:55:25,599
I, I, I, there’s of course a million and one other questions that I could have, but as we start to wrap things up- Mm-hmm.

564
00:55:25,599 –> 00:55:31,759
I’d really love for you to talk a little bit more about, like, the title of your book- Mm.

565
00:55:31,759 –> 00:55:56,459
you know, where, w- kind of give people a little bit of a synopsis of your book and, and also, you know, where do they find it, because I do think that this is a, a very different way of approaching the psychology side of it, and really looking at es- um, especially kind of brain science in a whole different way, and the way the cognitive sciences, in a way that, e- honestly we’re just emerging, we’re just getting really into it right now.

566
00:55:56,459 –> 00:55:57,456
Right, right.

567
00:55:58,239 –> 00:56:08,144
Yeah, so, um, the title of the book, the full title is The Nature-Embedded Mind: How the Way We Think Can Heal Our Planet and Ourselves.

568
00:56:09,102 –> 00:56:17,961
and, um, the cover, I have to put a shout-out to the artist that designed the cover with me, Alejandra Torres.

569
00:56:17,961 –> 00:56:25,341
They, we spent so much time together just really getting this image of-

570
00:56:25,341 –> 00:56:33,161
this human connected with, in the, in the cover, very particular plants, insects.

571
00:56:33,161 –> 00:56:44,400
They’re from particular, like, geographical locations that I felt important to include in this, um, you know, this visual.

572
00:56:45,021 –> 00:56:45,261
Right.

573
00:56:45,261 –> 00:56:50,961
Um, the book is available anywhere, really, so you can

574
00:56:50,961 –> 00:56:52,941
Amazon if you’re okay with Amazon.

575
00:56:52,941 –> 00:56:54,521
A lot of people are not.

576
00:56:54,521 –> 00:56:55,801
Um- Bookshop.org, folks.

577
00:56:55,801 –> 00:56:56,521
Exactly.

578
00:56:56,521 –> 00:56:56,882
Bookshop.org.

579
00:56:56,882 –> 00:56:59,581
Bookshop.org and- I’ll, I’ll put a link.

580
00:56:59,581 –> 00:57:04,101
Yeah, and Indie Books and, you know, um, you could go to my website.

581
00:57:04,101 –> 00:57:04,681
I can

582
00:57:04,681 –> 00:57:08,368
You know, if you want a signed copy, I’m happy to, to mail that out.

583
00:57:09,861 –> 00:57:11,141
Um, it’s

584
00:57:11,141 –> 00:57:16,101
The book, I designed it so that it’s hopefully a really fun read.

585
00:57:16,101 –> 00:57:17,881
You know, it’s got anecdote.

586
00:57:17,881 –> 00:57:20,221
It’s, um, got my sense of humor.

587
00:57:20,221 –> 00:57:21,662
It’s-

588
00:57:21,662 –> 00:57:23,361
uh, you know, it’s got science in it.

589
00:57:23,361 –> 00:57:31,402
It’s got a reflection of my journey to becoming a guide, like from my journal while I was there.

590
00:57:31,402 –> 00:57:34,361
So it’s very like- So there might be cursing, folks.

591
00:57:34,361 –> 00:57:36,462
There might be cursing.

592
00:57:36,462 –> 00:57:43,998
I think the only curse word I left in was shite, which in America isn’t, so

593
00:57:45,221 –> 00:57:45,681
Wow.

594
00:57:45,681 –> 00:57:47,461
But, um, yeah.

595
00:57:47,461 –> 00:57:49,104
So let’s see, what else?

596
00:57:49,801 –> 00:57:50,941
Um, yeah.

597
00:57:50,941 –> 00:57:56,321
It’s just an introduction to this concept.

598
00:57:56,321 –> 00:58:03,181
And then, and hopefully, again, it’s like a very warm, soft, engaging introduction.

599
00:58:03,181 –> 00:58:10,981
Um, there are prompts if you w- You know, like I have said in the book, it’s best to take the book out of doors, so find- Right.

600
00:58:10,981 –> 00:58:17,481
find your other-than-human allies or your spot and bring anything that comes up to them.

601
00:58:17,481 –> 00:58:20,741
So there’s got, it’s got some prompts like that.

602
00:58:20,741 –> 00:58:25,701
Um, but it’s really, it’s really an introduction to the practice.

603
00:58:25,701 –> 00:58:30,741
So like anything, reading the book isn’t going to create the shift.

604
00:58:30,741 –> 00:58:33,921
The shift is created in the experiences.

605
00:58:33,921 –> 00:58:34,520
Mm-hmm.

606
00:58:34,520 –> 00:58:46,421
And so it is advised, you know, you can find someone like you, you know, that knows how to take people in and connect, reconnect in those sensory ways.

607
00:58:46,421 –> 00:58:51,861
Or I have a company that I co-founded with Julia DeConiva.

608
00:58:51,861 –> 00:58:53,359
The 2 of us have

609
00:58:53,961 –> 00:58:55,761
It’s called Elemental.

610
00:58:55,761 –> 00:58:59,981
If you Google search it, it’s Experience Em- Oh, we’ll put it all in the show notes.

611
00:58:59,981 –> 00:59:00,181
Okay,

612
00:59:00,181 –> 00:59:01,501
We got it up right in front of me.

613
00:59:01,501 –> 00:59:02,341
Ah, excellent.

614
00:59:02,341 –> 00:59:07,221
Yeah, and that is, uh, a place where we do retreats and we do

615
00:59:07,221 –> 00:59:15,941
We’re going to have a book study group, so I’m really excited about that, so that we can take each chapter and in real time say, “What is this?”

616
00:59:15,941 –> 00:59:23,461
You know, this is again where it becomes a collective, you know, really breaking this artificial hierarchy.

617
00:59:23,461 –> 00:59:26,541
I don’t have the answers any more than anybody.

618
00:59:26,541 –> 00:59:29,721
We’re, we’re w- looking at this together.

619
00:59:29,721 –> 00:59:31,401
What does it stir in you?

620
00:59:31,401 –> 00:59:33,701
What does your wisdom tell you about this?

621
00:59:33,701 –> 00:59:38,821
You know, and then of course, what are the other-than-humans’ wisdom say about this?

622
00:59:38,821 –> 00:59:44,432
Um, so the practice is really where someone will be able to make the shift.

623
00:59:45,081 –> 00:59:49,141
Um, again, a serious plug for ANFT.

624
00:59:49,141 –> 00:59:51,041
There are guides all over the world.

625
00:59:51,041 –> 00:59:51,520
Right.

626
00:59:51,520 –> 01:00:03,998
So if you want to experience that particular style, if not from me, they’re everywhere and you can, you know, log on and they have a list of all of their certified guides.

627
01:00:04,721 –> 01:00:11,841
Um, I think that’s about the book, unless there was anything I didn’t- No, I think that that’s great.

628
01:00:11,841 –> 01:00:12,761
I think that’s wonderful.

629
01:00:12,761 –> 01:00:13,601
And we’ll definitely

630
01:00:13,601 –> 01:00:18,921
I’ll make sure that I put everything into the show notes, so we’ll have a link to your, to your website.

631
01:00:18,921 –> 01:00:20,381
We’ll have a link to the book.

632
01:00:20,381 –> 01:00:22,701
We’ll have a link to all the different aspects.

633
01:00:22,701 –> 01:00:27,241
I do love that you’re going to do a, a kind of book club type perspective.

634
01:00:40,319 –> 01:00:47,700
So I love the idea that you’re gonna go kind of chapter by chapter, because it also encourages people to, to do the practices, to experiment- Right.

635
01:00:47,700 –> 01:00:53,959
with it, to play, and again, that safe environment that says, “Hey, it doesn’t really matter what answers you get or what you experience.

636
01:00:53,959 –> 01:00:56,039
The important thing is just having the experience.”

637
01:00:56,039 –> 01:00:56,919
So- Right.

638
01:00:56,919 –> 01:00:59,560
Julie, this has been fantastic.

639
01:00:59,560 –> 01:01:05,699
I mean, I’m so glad that we had this conversation, and I feel like there’s so many pieces in here.

640
01:01:05,699 –> 01:01:08,800
Like I said, I’ll make sure everything is in the show notes.

641
01:01:08,800 –> 01:01:16,659
Um, I am just excited that there are people like who are in these fields, like you, that are going out and being so vocal.

642
01:01:16,659 –> 01:01:25,260
I know that myself as somebody who reads a lot of papers in the neuroscience especially and some others, it’s, it’s, there’s still a hard road.

643
01:01:25,260 –> 01:01:44,259
Like, there is, there’s more coming out about awe and wonder and the, the beautiful aspects of it, and I think that there is a little bit of a shift, but in the cognitive sciences, um, I just went to a conference a few months back in Padova that was actually in the University of Padova but in the School of Psychology.

644
01:01:44,259 –> 01:01:44,380
Mm-hmm.

645
01:01:44,380 –> 01:01:47,979
And it’s all around plant facts and plant, and the plant mind.

646
01:01:47,979 –> 01:02:06,279
And so there is more coming out, but you know, we need every single little ounce of, you know, voice out there to help keep people understanding that this, this trauma that we all kind of collectively experience, we also can collectively heal.

647
01:02:06,279 –> 01:02:09,886
And so thank you so much for the work that you’re doing.

648
01:02:10,480 –> 01:02:25,900
And everybody who’s listening, if you are looking for more resources, please reach out to Julie, check out her book, check out all the information, and of course, you know, the ANF- uh, ANFT which, uh, ho- foundat- foundation, it’s not really a foundation, like you said, organization- Foundation,

649
01:02:25,900 –> 01:02:31,179
is a great one for forest therapy, as well as come into the Naturally Conscious community and have these experiences.

650
01:02:31,179 –> 01:02:36,144
The most important thing is to remember you’re never alone and you don’t have to do this alone.

651
01:02:36,279 –> 01:02:40,080
Like, let’s all help each other heal this collective trauma.

652
01:02:41,119 –> 01:02:42,040
So- Beautiful.

653
01:02:42,040 –> 01:02:45,400
that’s, that’s it for me and that’s it for us.

654
01:02:45,400 –> 01:02:46,560
So thank you so much.

655
01:02:46,560 –> 01:02:50,900
Remember always to resist the urge to hold back your emerging green brilliance.

656
01:02:50,900 –> 01:02:51,614
Bye.

657
01:02:52,259 –> 01:02:55,600
Thanks for tuning in to this episode of Reconnect With Plant Wisdom.

658
01:02:56,139 –> 01:03:06,480
To continue these conversations, join us in the Naturally Conscious community, your premier online ecosystem for plant reawakening and accelerated evolution and co-creation with otherkin.

659
01:03:07,106 –> 01:03:16,528
Here, you’ll find expansive discussions, interactive courses, live events, and supportive group programs like the Plant Wisdom Book Club and the Sprouts Writing and Creativity Group.

660
01:03:17,179 –> 01:03:22,379
Connect with like-minded individuals collaborating with plants to integrate these insights into life.

661
01:03:22,379 –> 01:03:27,519
Intro and outro music by Steve Schuli and Poinsetta from The Singing Life of Plants.

662
01:03:27,519 –> 01:03:31,139
That’s it for me, Tigrilla Gardenia, and my plant collaborators.

663
01:03:31,139 –> 01:03:35,879
Until next time, remember, resist the urge to hold back your emerging green brilliance.

664
01:03:35,879 –> 01:03:36,619
I’m out.

665
01:03:36,619 –> 01:03:37,159
Bye.