Ep.122 Outlawed Plant Allies and the Art of Sacrifice with Sarah Russo

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Hello, hello, hello, everyone.

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Welcome back to another episode of Reconnect with Plant Wisdom.

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It’s me, Tigrilla Gardenia.

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You’re gonna love this episode.

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You’re gonna love this episode.

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When, when Sarah and I first got on the call and we were just kind of discussing some of the points we wanted to hit, she said, Oh, we’re gonna go deep.

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And she was right.

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Like we went deep, and you’re going to love, love where we ended up.

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And I am very excited to present to you Sarah Russo, who wrote Herbs for the Apocalypse, this graphic novel that we’re gonna go into in graphic detail, because there is just so much here.

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We talked about revolution, we talked about resistance, we talked about, um, w- how we as humans don’t know how to handle super powerful plants.

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We talked about the creative process.

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There was just so many aspects of this episode that are going to like just put us, uh, as we said, kind of take us into the new paradigm of what it means to have a deep connection with plants and what happens when we allow ourselves to completely kind of create this, uh, creative process with plants and what comes out on the other end.

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So this is episode 122, Outlawed: Plant Allies and the Art of Sacrifice with Sarah Russo.

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This is all about writing Herbs for the Apocalypse and listening for revolution.

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Enjoy.

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Welcome to Reconnect with Plant Wisdom.

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I’m your host, Tigrilla Gardenia, nature-inspired mentor, certified life coach, and the founder of the Naturally Conscious Community.

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For over a decade, I’ve been known as a world ambassador for plant advocacy, working closely with plants to share their practical wisdom to help you consciously embody the elements of life that nourish your evolution.

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In this podcast, I delve into ancient and modern knowledge, from biology to spirituality, about the wondrous ways of plants.

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Together, we’ll explore how ecosystem thinking helps you overcome limiting beliefs, understand the true nature of relationships, and live an authentic, impactful life.

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So Sarah, I actually found your work, um, actually a few years back when I was first deep diving into all of this world of plants and stuff.

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And then I came across your novel at some point, and I kind of s- read through it, and it was one of those things.

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It’s actually bookmarked, which I don’t put a lot of bookmarks, but it’s one of those bookmarks that I have.

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So I’m actually really excited to have this conversation with you cause I’ve always been curious of like how did you get there.

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But before we jump into all of the work that you’ve done and the novel that you’ve written, can you please tell everybody who is Sarah Russo?

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Thank you so much.

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I’m excited to have this conversation as well.

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Um, I- who am I or who, what do I do is always a question that’s really hard for me to answer.

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Um, I think I’m not alone in that.

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A lot of people are, struggle to define themselves in that way.

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Um, but it, I’m, I’m working on that question.

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Um, and right now I’m in a life transition and things like that.

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But, um, ultimately I’m a plant nerd.

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I’m essentially self-taught.

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Um, I grew up in nature, and so I’ve always been inspired by nature, always had a very deep connection to the planet.

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Um, and when I was little, um, I had a river in my backyard.

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And so I grew up in Montana, so I had mountains and rivers, and I just grew up listening, listening to plants.

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And, um, when I was about 10, um, my dad at the time ha- started this essential oils collection.

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Um, and I started reading books and smelling them.

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And I remember there was a moment where I had a cold, and so I looked in, looked up which, uh, essential oils would be good for a cold.

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And I put some in the bath, and I felt better afterwards, and that was my moment of clarity.

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Amazing, I can heal myself.

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This is some powerful stuff, right?

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Um, and then life leads you in different ways.

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And being an adolescent, I got kind of lost in other things.

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Um, and then when I got to college, one of my friends, she and I both started on, uh, the k- herbal medicine path.

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Um, I have chronic health conditions, so I started learning about ways that I could heal myself that didn’t involve pharmaceuticals.

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And a lot of the diseases that people work with are highly complex, and so plants hold a natural complexity, which I think mirrors our internal complexity.

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Um, and so long story short, fast forwarding, um, cannabis is what started me on the path of writing.

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And so I start, I became a writer, an editor, and a communications strategist involving plant medicine.

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And so that’s my current work.

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And, um, that was always the more scientific side of things, um, cause historically I’ve worked with holding a lot of complexity in the sense of subject matter and then trying to translate that to a general audience because I’m not a scientist, but I do like to kind of navigate that world and help make that information accessible.

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Um, so sometimes when there’s a scientific paper, I have a lot of trouble understanding some of the-

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deep aspects of it, but there’s a lot of information you can pull out, and I work with people to help me translate that as well.

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Um, so yeah.

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And that, and that brings me to kind of, uh, another space in which I’ve always been creativeAnd I know that’s something that resonated with your project as well, is this like side of creativity and this side of science and they’re not mutually exclusive.

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So that’s where the idea of the graphic novel, Herbs for the Apocalypse came in.

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I had only ever did, um, writing articles, scientifically backed information, and then I got this idea for a fiction full novel and that was this big learning curve for me.

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But I just had to follow that, that path.

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It wouldn’t really let me live it down, so.

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Yeah.

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I understand that feeling.

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And, and I’m glad that you talked about the creativity and, and we’re gonna deep dive into that cause I think that that’s such a big piece and so important, the, the creativity mixed with the science.

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I also do plant consciousness commentary and, you know, there I am literally trying to break down exactly that science into a way that we can s- not only understand it, but also with the benefit in my perspective, like for me, of being outside of the academic world but kind of like with a foot or like a toe k- into it, I’m also able to read between the lines or explore what happens when you read between the lines, cause I think that that’s another aspect that unfortunately

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you have such amazing knowledge and information and ideas and concepts and understanding that are coming out of these papers.

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But when you read them only directly, which I understand why the science world has to do that, I think you miss the richness and the extrapolation that can happen in everyday life, not just at the biological or academic type levels.

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And so I love doing the commentary from that perspective and it feels in some ways like that’s a little bit of what you did with Herbs for the Apocalypse.

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In other words, you took all of this knowledge but then wrapped it into a completely different type of container.

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Mm-hmm.

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So can you tell people a little, before we start, cause I wanna dive into it already, can you just tell people, cause the book, the, the gr- it’s a graphic novel.

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It’s very like, you know, it’s punk.

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It’s, it’s raw.

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It’s like in your face in so many different ways, very opposite from the kind of writing you were just describing.

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So can you, can you explain to people what, what the novel is really about and, and, you know, what kind of, um, what’s the angle that you decided to choose or like that felt called to, to ex- to express this?

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Sure.

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Yeah, I think you nailed it actually, the perspective of, of the, the work.

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Um, so initially this idea came to me, it was the title was, uh, in place from very early on, Herbs for the Apocalypse.

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The protagonist is Sofia Spinoza, she’s a dreamer rooted by her love of plant life and she gets insights from plants directly, um, a- since she was a child and her family ancestry.

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And so she’s a Luddite per- per- perpetually chasing an era that she never knew.

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She’s really into records, uh, she has a Walkman, she doesn’t have a cell phone.

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Um, and so, uh, she’s at odds with the world and she’s always been perpetually angry about the human race destroying the planet.

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So she goes to work in an herb shop and the story unfolds kind of within the context of the herb shop, and so with all the characters coming in during Armageddon, the kind of stories and things that evolve throughout time and then the herbs start to talk more loudly.

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And so a lot of plants get mentioned throughout this story but there are 10 herbs of the apocalypse that have a monologue, so they’ll come in and give insight on how to survive the end of times.

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And so, um, it started off as a novel and I wrote 3 different, uh, drafts and then long story short I shelved the idea.

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I said, This isn’t gonna work.

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At least I can say I wrote a book no one will ever read it.

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Um-

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and then I got the idea again because I had never written a novel and I’d never written fiction and then all of a sudden it just, the idea was make it a graphic novel.

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I had never done that, um, I had to find an artist, so I did, and it took over 2 years straight of the artist, Rokai, and I working together.

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Um, and the concept of it was in its essence quite unconventional.

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I’m not gonna say I reinvented the wheel.

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All art is pulling from somewhere, right?

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Um, but I knew early on that this concept was quite different in the sense of- Mm-hmm.

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the status quo.

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Um, and so traditional publishing, I threw out the window after the 3 drafts of the graph- or the novel itself.

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And I said, No, that’s not the way I’m gonna go about it.

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Um, because the spirit of the story really did wanna defy, uh, rules in a lot of ways.

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Um, and so in the story, 2 of the characters write for a zine.

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And so it kinda has that 90s zine aspect going to it in the way that it looks.

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Um, and I had story developers and people I was talking through, um, during the process of writing it.

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Um, and I had people proofread it at the end, but it’s very gritty intentionally.

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Um, and there were certain rules of writing, like points of view and things like that that I decided I wanted to jump back and forth between.

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I didn’t wanna just maintain this constant thread.

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It jumps through time.

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It seemed to come out quite cohesively, um, but it’s a little bit of a wild ride.

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And so it’s not everyone’s cup of tea.

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Um, but the people that it resonates with, I think it really does.

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And I had- Right.

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more than one person tell me, Oh, the character Sofia, I know someone like her.

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She’s an archetype, right?

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So it’s like pinpointing an archetype of this type of person that we coexist with, and people also ask me, Is she you?

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And I tell them, Well, all the characters are me to a certain extent.

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Um- Right.

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But for her, what it really was, was taking this part of myself that has been in the past completely devastated by the state of the world, um, and giving that a microphone.

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And so it was a very cathartic experience because I s- I wrote the novel before the pandemic, but the actual process of the graphic novel was started in plain pandemic.

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Mm.

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So, you know, both Rokaya and I are dealing with our perspective ways of doing things.

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She’s in Cairo, Egypt, I was in Spain, and we’re just facing the pandemic together working on this project.

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So it was very, uh, it- it helped, it was a therapeutic experience for sure.

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Um, and then the plants themselves, The Ten Herbs of the Apocalypse, I- I ha- I- it was an interesting consideration, you know, because on one hand, I thought, Who am I to speak for these plants?

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You know?

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Who am I say, This is what rose says, and this is dandelion’s voice”?

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But at the same time, it’s, it’s an interpretation, right?

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Anybody- Right.

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can have their own interpretation, but it’s interesting.

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When we had our talk together, you were saying, Dandelion is screaming, and that was exactly how I felt about it, you know?

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So there are these common parallels that we find.

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So it’s interesting to think about plant consciousness and kind of the same types of messages that are coming through and what they might be.

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Right.

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Well, and I think that this is where what I love about working with the more than human world, right?

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When you work with other kin, it’s always a collaboration whatever comes out, because ultimately we are the ones with human language.

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We’re the ones with arms and legs to be able to do certain things that the plants can’t do, right?

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So plants have this experience of having all this knowledge, and then there is, to a certain extent, kind of a- a- a race mind that exists, and yet every being that you work with, every different dandelion has their own pieces of personality, which is exactly what we expect, right?

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It’s what we see in every other species.

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I don’t understand why people think that plants should be different in this way.

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But ultimately in order to get something out into the human world, it’s always gotta be collaboration, and what I find always fascinating is I’ve worked with many and I’ve spoken with many artists that have this process, whether they’re writers or painters or other kinds of creative artists that have worked very closely, musicians, with plants, and it’s always fascinating to me to see the- the dance that ends up happening, the- the period where you allow the plant to use your

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talents, let’s just say, and your human abilities.

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And so you- you kind of almost open and you’re just a channel that conduits what is coming from the plant and- and translates it into a human vocabulary or a human expression, but yet it’s as close to the essence of the plant as possible.

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Mm-hmm.

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And on the other side is the full, you know, collaboration that happens when the plant expre- it’s almost like 2 people, you know, it is 2 people that are bantering back and forth, and you just are- are the one that ultimately puts it out into this human world becau- but it- it comes from something that is made by both of you.

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Did you have that experience?

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Like, how did you find the creative process with the plants themselves in order to channel their voice?

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Like, what was that like, and- and did it change over the course of the

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Especially from the previous incarnation of, like, novel novel to graphic novel that adds really a different element to it?

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Mm-hmm.That’s a good question.

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Yeah, so the novel itself, actually the graphic novel, what it turned in to be, is quite different.

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The story formulated and I had to make it more concise, and it, it always should have been a, a graphic novel in the end.

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Um- Right.

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now I feel like any future work I do for the creative process side of things, I want it to be in a graphic novel format because I just feel like

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For me, especially the main character, she’s so provocative, and so if you can actually see her, you can empathize with her better.

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But when she was just- Right.

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words on a page, it was a little bit harder, and I had one of my beta readers say, I can’t stand her.

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So, um, she wasn’t written-

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to be liked necessarily, but you know, there is a- Right.

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a degree of empathy that pe- the reader can have when they’re viewing it as a graphic novel.

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And for example, my brother- Right.

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he only reads graphic novels.

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He doesn’t read any normal books.

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Um, so there are a lot of people that I think can, um, gain access to information in a visual sense that they couldn’t if they were just trying to read a simple book.

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Um, so the process of connecting with the plants for the story, uh, was very interesting because there was a lot of information that was kind of coming through me, um, and, and I think it was you had asked me where did it come from.

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I can’t really say exactly where.

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I’ve had friends start writing books through dreams, like this idea came from a dream.

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For me, it just came in.

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And wherever that came from, I’m grateful, um- Right.

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because in a sense I- feel like it became kind of a conduit for the story, and for me it’s just, okay, here you go.

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This is the output.

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This is the creation and my interpretation of that.

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Um, and so on one side of things, there was a more mental, logical approach.

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Um, for the 10 herbs of the apocalypse, I wanted to choose plants that would be, um, accessible in a current state, you know, when we’re dealing with international droughts and climate change, um, that were really resistant plants.

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So there was that.

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So that was like a more logical approach, but then there were the plants that just told me, Yeah.

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w- I need- Me.

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to be there.

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Me, me, me, me, me, me.

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It’s crazy how they’re like that.

176
00:18:26,051 –> 00:18:26,891
When I did my

177
00:18:26,891 –> 00:18:36,451
I have a spirit wild plant quiz, and that leads obviously to an entire kind of experience with those f- those plants, oh my goodness.

178
00:18:36,451 –> 00:18:39,251
Like, me, me, me, me, me, me.

179
00:18:39,251 –> 00:18:43,691
I’m gonna show up here, I’m gonna show up there, I’m gonna show up in these pots that you’ve left outside.

180
00:18:43,691 –> 00:18:44,331.00000000023283
I

181
00:18:44,331.00000000023283 –> 00:18:45,854
You have to choose me.

182
00:18:47,231 –> 00:18:47,614
Yes.

183
00:18:48,411 –> 00:18:48,610.9999999997672
Okay.

184
00:18:48,610.9999999997672 –> 00:18:50,447.99999999976717
You’re like, Okay.

185
00:18:51,591 –> 00:18:51,691
Yes.

186
00:18:51,691 –> 00:18:59,871
Yes, and I- I do feel there are plants that are very willing to be in the spotlight, and they kind- they’re kind of what I call the divas, right?

187
00:18:59,871 –> 00:19:00,110.99999999976717
They- Right.

188
00:19:00,110.99999999976717 –> 00:19:05,871.9999999997672
they’re demanding that attention, and then there are beautiful plants that are also happy to work quietly in the background.

189
00:19:06,754 –> 00:19:07,491
Exactly.

190
00:19:07,491 –> 00:19:14,051
Um, and so there are some plants in the p- writing process that were like my quiet aids.

191
00:19:14,051 –> 00:19:15,011
Um- Mm-hmm.

192
00:19:15,011 –> 00:19:25,951
And I wanted to start and end the story with 2 psychoactive plants that have been with us throughout history, um, and so that’s

193
00:19:25,951 –> 00:19:29,491
The beginning is cannabis and the end is opium poppy.

194
00:19:29,491 –> 00:19:30,672
And so, um-

195
00:19:32,391 –> 00:19:39,711
th- that was quite clear as well, because I think about a lot of peop- anybody could have their herbs of the apocalypse, right?

196
00:19:39,711 –> 00:19:40,751
Like this is just 1 Right.

197
00:19:40,751 –> 00:19:44,411
I compiled, um, from my side of things.

198
00:19:44,411 –> 00:19:47,811.0000000002328
Um, but I feel like those plants are really here.

199
00:19:47,811.0000000002328 –> 00:19:50,671
They’ve been here, um

200
00:19:50,671 –> 00:19:56,911
Opium poppy, there’s evidence from Neolithic times that the, our past ancestors were working with the plant.

201
00:19:56,911 –> 00:20:00,351
So they’re around, they’ve been here, they’re gonna be here- Right.

202
00:20:00,351 –> 00:20:02,130.99999999976717
no matter what happens to us.

203
00:20:02,130.99999999976717 –> 00:20:03,691
So, um, yeah.

204
00:20:03,691 –> 00:20:04,291.00000000023283
There’s that.

205
00:20:04,291.00000000023283 –> 00:20:06,871
And then there’s the, the, the medicinal plants.

206
00:20:06,871 –> 00:20:10,711
All i- all plants have a medicine as far as I’m concerned.

207
00:20:10,711 –> 00:20:15,344
There are some medicinal attributes that I think are more commonly known.

208
00:20:16,331.00000000023283 –> 00:20:16,351
Right.

209
00:20:16,351 –> 00:20:29,619
Um, and the intention behind the story actually was to make this information accessible and also to demonstrate that every single one of us can have and has a connection to plants.

210
00:20:29,619 –> 00:20:33,579
It’s not something that’s an esoteric, Oh, look at me, I’m so special.

211
00:20:33,579 –> 00:20:35,279
I have this connection.

212
00:20:35,279 –> 00:20:40,319
Um, it’s really to inspire people to connect in the way that they feel called to.

213
00:20:40,319 –> 00:20:45,739
So, I mean, even if you’re sipping something like chamomile tea, you know, chamomile-

214
00:20:45,739 –> 00:20:47,439
is such a powerful plant.

215
00:20:47,439 –> 00:20:51,799
It’s, it’s so amazing and so accessible, so it’s a great plant to connect with.

216
00:20:51,799 –> 00:20:53,299
And- Right.

217
00:20:53,299 –> 00:20:55,979
And everybody has a unique perspective, you know.

218
00:20:55,979 –> 00:21:01,168
And if you talk to someone about their experience with chamomile, they may tell you something that you never thought about before.

219
00:21:01,779 –> 00:21:10,819
So it’s to kind of take herb, herbs or plant wisdom or plant medicine off its pedestal a bit to be like, hey, this is a people’s medicine.

220
00:21:10,819 –> 00:21:15,486
And so, that’s what kind of the spirit of the project is in its essence.

221
00:21:16,559 –> 00:21:18,039
Oh, I, I really like that.

222
00:21:18,039 –> 00:21:19,979
I like it because I think

223
00:21:19,979 –> 00:21:27,959
Uh, you know, as I said, I have this quiz and I’ve, I’ve been working with spirit wild plants, which are basically what people call weeds, for so many years.

224
00:21:27,959 –> 00:21:38,099
And I find, um, the other th- the other thing that I really love about working with them, in addition to everything you just said, is how they pop in and out of your life in different periods of time.

225
00:21:38,099 –> 00:21:58,039
And I, um, like for example, purslane is a plant that, uh, I c- c- you know, over the last maybe about 5 or 6 years, has moments when it pops up, starts growing in a pot randomly, and I have this massive experience for a season, and then goes away.

226
00:21:58,039 –> 00:21:59,139
And it’s not a periodic.

227
00:21:59,139 –> 00:22:08,839
Like this year, there is no purslane around my, my home, which is for the last, you know, 2 years, purslane has been very consistent.

228
00:22:08,839 –> 00:22:11,059
And all of a sudden now, there’s no purslane anywhere.

229
00:22:11,059 –> 00:22:15,859
And it’s like the message is so clear, This is not what I have to offer you.

230
00:22:15,859 –> 00:22:18,939
The work that we do together is not necessary right now.

231
00:22:18,939 –> 00:22:21,079
So, you know, go work with somebody else.

232
00:22:21,079 –> 00:22:23,759
And so another plant might come in and such.

233
00:22:23,759 –> 00:22:43,559
So I think that, uh, as you’re saying, it’s like these plants are accessible, and at the same time, are still kind of coming into our s- uh, into our purview, into our, our, our circle in those moments that are most important, which I think is great for the work that, you know, for that kind of novel, for the topic that you talk about.

234
00:22:43,559 –> 00:22:52,579
And, uh, you know, going back to a little bit just what you said about the graphic novel, we in Dominoher have a, a graphic novel that we wrote also, uh, called Checkmate in Time.

235
00:22:52,579 –> 00:22:53,599
It’s actually a double.

236
00:22:53,599 –> 00:22:58,039
It’s on one side is part one, and then you flip it over and you have part 2.

237
00:22:58,039 –> 00:22:59,299
So it’s really interesting- Oh.

238
00:22:59,299 –> 00:23:00,319
the way it’s written.

239
00:23:00,319 –> 00:23:08,599
But what I love about it is that also it’s, it’s easier to do the suspension of disbelief when you have a graphic novel.

240
00:23:08,599 –> 00:23:16,059
It’s almost easier for a person to give themselves space to experience what’s happening in the graphic novel.

241
00:23:16,059 –> 00:23:23,299
And only after say to themselves, Well, what part of that is quote unquote real or how do I process that in a different way?

242
00:23:23,299 –> 00:23:28,579
So I, I actually enjoyed so much this format that you chose because of that.

243
00:23:28,579 –> 00:23:32,059
It’s, it’s a different way of entering into connection with plants.

244
00:23:32,059 –> 00:23:43,559
And the other piece of it is as a, as a, as a actually a kind of like old-fashioned 1980s heavy metal rocker chick, which I don’t appear to be right now, but I am.

245
00:23:43,559 –> 00:23:43,799
Yes.

246
00:23:43,799 –> 00:23:47,279
And, um, if you go, if you go see my social network, you’ll see like where

247
00:23:47,279 –> 00:23:50,519
the concerts I’ve been to recently and it will prove it.

248
00:23:50,519 –> 00:23:50,539
Nice.

249
00:23:50,539 –> 00:24:05,259
I also love the breaking from the stereotype that thinks that, you know, people who are connected to plants have to be, you know, the hippie sort of like, um, you know, f- fingernails in the earth all the time, bohemian type of

250
00:24:05,259 –> 00:24:09,199
Like these are the categories in which you connect to plants.

251
00:24:09,199 –> 00:24:29,639.0000000002328
And so the idea that, that instead, here you have, you know, Sofia that is more, like you said, Luddite punk rocker, like that more edgy side and how the plants still, you know, how the plants wanna work with her through that part of the personality, I also found really an important choice.

252
00:24:29,639.0000000002328 –> 00:24:35,879
Um, and I believe a, a co-created choice cause I’m sure that the plants were like, Hey, don’t put us with another fricking hippie.

253
00:24:35,879 –> 00:24:37,019
We’ve got enough of those.

254
00:24:37,019 –> 00:24:37,519
Like-

255
00:24:37,519 –> 00:24:39,418.99999999976717
We chose you to write this.

256
00:24:39,418.99999999976717 –> 00:24:47,639.0000000002328
We chose you to write this because we want these colors and these personalities of yours to come out and start to show these pieces.

257
00:24:47,639.0000000002328 –> 00:24:51,219
So please let them shine like type of thing.

258
00:24:51,219 –> 00:24:51,719
Yeah.

259
00:24:51,719 –> 00:24:58,960
Did you find that, that like the plants really wanted to accentuate certain aspects of Sofia more than others?

260
00:25:01,218 –> 00:25:02,699
Um, yes.

261
00:25:02,699 –> 00:25:04,259
There was this

262
00:25:04,259 –> 00:25:06,918.9999999997672
There’s a part of her, the isolation.

263
00:25:06,918.9999999997672 –> 00:25:21,559
Uh, I felt like that was an important part to kind of give space for, um, because I think a lot of times when I’m feeling most connected to plant kin, it’s when I’m in a space of isolation.

264
00:25:21,559 –> 00:25:22,918.9999999997672
So either I’m by myself- Mm-hmm.

265
00:25:22,918.9999999997672 –> 00:25:26,659
in nature or I’m meditating, right?

266
00:25:26,659 –> 00:25:34,379
And you can have collective plant experiences that can be all also v- uh, connect you to a cohesive unified voice.

267
00:25:34,379 –> 00:25:34,879
Right.

268
00:25:34,879 –> 00:25:44,739
But for me anyway, it takes a lot of kind of, hermetic type spaces to be able to really tap into that because I’m very sensitive.

269
00:25:44,739 –> 00:25:48,599
So if there’s any other energies present, I can absorb that readily.

270
00:25:48,599 –> 00:26:03,379
So I think that that kind of at odds with the world dynamic that is very present in the novel was important to convey, um, and to kind of give her a softness that- Mm-hmm.

271
00:26:03,379 –> 00:26:05,779
kind expands over time as well.

272
00:26:05,779 –> 00:26:07,539
I thought that was important.

273
00:26:07,539 –> 00:26:08,112
Um-

274
00:26:08,699 –> 00:26:14,679
because y- you don’t wanna wri- it would be really boring to write a character that was never questioned or everyone- Of course.

275
00:26:14,679 –> 00:26:15,380
says, Oh, yeah.

276
00:26:15,380 –> 00:26:15,879
Go for it.

277
00:26:15,879 –> 00:26:17,019
You’re amazing all the time.

278
00:26:17,019 –> 00:26:17,380
You know?

279
00:26:17,380 –> 00:26:22,179
It was- she, she definitely has the head-butting along the way.

280
00:26:22,179 –> 00:26:22,519
Um.

281
00:26:22,519 –> 00:26:22,920
Mm-hmm.

282
00:26:22,920 –> 00:26:25,400
And I definitely

283
00:26:25,400 –> 00:26:55,344
It was interesting too, um, because it was written pre-AI era as we know it now, um, and so the kind of devotion that it took and the amount of time to, A, write a novel, and then completely ditch that, and then have to transform it into a script, which I’m giving to Rokaya cause for anybody that doesn’t know, when you create a graphic novel, you have to design basically a- it’s very synonymous with a movie script.

284
00:26:55,899 –> 00:26:57,418.99999999976717
So you have to say- Right.

285
00:26:57,418.99999999976717 –> 00:27:02,320
uh, Pen one, this is what the character’s wearing, this is what happens, this is the dialogue.

286
00:27:02,320 –> 00:27:04,999
Um, and so that takes a lot of time.

287
00:27:04,999 –> 00:27:08,219
And, and so for me, the, the

288
00:27:08,219 –> 00:27:12,979
a big part of it was this act of devotion and sacrifice.

289
00:27:12,979 –> 00:27:18,239
Sacrifice feels like a very big word to say, um, but it just

290
00:27:18,239 –> 00:27:21,939
it takes a lot of time and energy and effort.

291
00:27:21,939 –> 00:27:23,699
Um, and so that was part of it.

292
00:27:23,699 –> 00:27:24,859
It was my offering.

293
00:27:24,859 –> 00:27:41,539
I’m really glad that you used the word sacrifice cause one of the things that I learned early on working with plants, and I remember this important lesson, um, a- and I remember kind of the different moments that it came in so that I could not just

294
00:27:41,539 –> 00:27:46,019
cause it’s, it’s not a like you receive it once and all of a sudden it’s super clear.

295
00:27:46,019 –> 00:27:48,679
It’s you receive it, and you’re kinda like, What is this?

296
00:27:48,679 –> 00:27:56,418.99999999976717
And then all of a sudden, you get it in a different way, and all these different ways manifest, and all of a sudden, the, the picture becomes clear over time.

297
00:27:56,418.99999999976717 –> 00:28:27,059
And sacrifice was one of those that the plants w- really all the different plants I started to work with, especially in forest environments, the more I learned about ecosystems, the more I- the, the more I went into kind of biomimicry perspectives and, and bio-inspired design, the more I started to realize how important, which is funny because I went from this technical sort of kind of like you were saying, from this technical, biological also engineering-ish style way

298
00:28:27,059 –> 00:28:43,899
that all of a sudden brought me to a, I guess you could say emotional, spiritual concept in a completely different light, which is the r- understanding of sacrifice in its most beautiful and positive light, which to a certain extent is something we’ve lost in society.

299
00:28:43,899 –> 00:29:02,199
You know, we- we have very small instances and, and parasitism as a, as an, a relationship approach is also a form of beautiful sacrifice that, when we think of it in most terms in society, we, we give a negative connotation to.

300
00:29:02,199 –> 00:29:05,259
But in reality, there are these small pinpoints.

301
00:29:05,259 –> 00:29:14,896
Parenthood is a great example of a form of parasitism and a form of voluntary sacrifice that is seen still with a positive light, thankfully.

302
00:29:15,519 –> 00:29:24,579
And but yet, we’ve lost all the beauty of the sacrifice bec- um, in almost every other aspect of society.

303
00:29:24,579 –> 00:29:55,019
And plants give us such wonderful exhib- um, uh, demonstrations of sacrifice in action, um, from sacrificing m- themselves to give space to a small seedling, from the way that I grow in order to get a little bit less light in order to ensure that more of the overall, uh, area gets better light, um, sacrificing parts of my own body, maybe a branch that falls or such in order to make space

304
00:29:55,019 –> 00:29:57,99.00000000023283
for something else that needs to come in.

305
00:29:57,99.00000000023283 –> 00:30:09,239
Like, there’s so ma- giving nutrients then, like, sharing off nutrients because we’re in a drought, and therefore I need to maintain so-and-so who’s gonna come in in the next season and I hope might give back to me but might not.

306
00:30:09,239 –> 00:30:14,359
Like, there’s so many different ways that plants show us this form of sacrifice that I think is something we have to re- reacquire, reconquer in our regular society because true revolution, true resistance actually requires a, a form of sacrifice.

307
00:30:14,359 –> 00:30:29,579
that I think is something we have to re- reacquire, reconquer in our regular society because true revolution, true resistance actually requires a, a forum of sacrifice.

308
00:30:29,579 –> 00:30:53,919
And even in most spiritual practices, for example, cabalistically speaking, the sacrifice is the Christ principle and, and is also, it’s Tiferet, is that, that, that complete beauty because all of a sudden when I give myself into that sacrifice in its most beautiful way, everything appears beautiful because it’s like, oh my God, I can see the intention.

309
00:30:53,919 –> 00:30:58,059
I can see, um, the, the desire from that.

310
00:30:58,059 –> 00:31:02,639
It doesn’t matter that the application of it might not work or that it might not be perfect.

311
00:31:02,639 –> 00:31:09,424
I see what it was meant to be and therefore I see the beauty in the intricacy of however it is that it’s developed.

312
00:31:09,922 –> 00:31:31,239
So I’m glad that you spoke about sacrifice because I do think that it’s, it’s just a lost archetype and, uh, it would be so important for us to reconquer it and to understand that sacrifice can be extremely beautiful and something extremely enriching from the beauty that it, it projects in you.

313
00:31:31,239 –> 00:31:38,736
So you know, kind of like, which is, I’m, I’m imagining and I hope that that’s how you see this whole process of all those years that it took you to get this novel out.

314
00:31:40,418.00000000023283 –> 00:31:41,059
Yeah.

315
00:31:41,059 –> 00:31:42,479
That’s a really amazing point.

316
00:31:42,479 –> 00:31:43,399
I think I agree.

317
00:31:43,399 –> 00:31:51,519
I think that we lack the connection to sacrifice in the modern Western world, um, in the global North anyway.

318
00:31:51,519 –> 00:31:58,896
Um, and I think that there are, uh, many traditions, like sacrifice.

319
00:31:59,739 –> 00:32:01,579
Initiation also is 1 Mm-hmm.

320
00:32:01,579 –> 00:32:03,059
that I feel like we really lack.

321
00:32:03,059 –> 00:32:04,199
Um- Yep.

322
00:32:04,199 –> 00:32:10,159
And there are a few examples that I can think of, something like getting a tattoo can be an initiation- Mm-hmm.

323
00:32:10,159 –> 00:32:10,992
experience.

324
00:32:11,679 –> 00:32:24,279
Um, but the, the construct in, that we see them is it’s, a lot of times if I think about c- um, sacrifice in the current world, it’s sort of a self- selfish sacrifice, right?

325
00:32:24,279 –> 00:32:25,039
It’s like- Correct.

326
00:32:25,039 –> 00:32:32,139.00000000023283
oh look at me, I just did this thing and I now have a presentation for the board, or something like that, right?

327
00:32:32,139.00000000023283 –> 00:32:32,499
Right, right.

328
00:32:32,499 –> 00:32:36,239
And I didn’t sleep all night and now th- the presentation’s done.

329
00:32:36,239 –> 00:32:43,856
But this kind of, I, I think plants give us the opportunity to just surrender to the unknown.

330
00:32:44,439 –> 00:32:44,699
Like- Mm-hmm.

331
00:32:44,699 –> 00:32:46,206
this is the work I need to do.

332
00:32:47,199 –> 00:32:47,559
Right.

333
00:32:47,559 –> 00:32:57,259
And I do it and I don’t know what the point is necessarily or what the outcome might be, but it’s just gonna be done and it doesn’t have to have- Yeah.

334
00:32:57,259 –> 00:33:00,159
definitive end necessarily as well.

335
00:33:00,159 –> 00:33:01,439
It just needs to be done.

336
00:33:01,439 –> 00:33:13,744
That’s all I knew with this project and I, and I was really frustrated when it was a novel and then I went through so many drafts and even kind of what killed the novel itself was, um, getting a professional edit.

337
00:33:14,559 –> 00:33:20,179
And I work as an editor now so it gave me a lot of perspective on what not to do.

338
00:33:20,179 –> 00:33:20,619
But I remember-

339
00:33:20,619 –> 00:33:26,059
there was 1 point where they said, This, this is very unrealistic.

340
00:33:26,059 –> 00:33:31,614
Oh, all right, well then, it’s just not gonna work out because- Exactly.

341
00:33:32,959 –> 00:33:43,216
Um, and so yeah, to kind of def- defy the constructs I think a lot of times, uh, the, the kind of renaissance of sacrifice needs to do that.

342
00:33:44,194 –> 00:33:45,099
Absolutely.

343
00:33:45,099 –> 00:33:45,439
Yeah.

344
00:33:45,439 –> 00:33:51,259
In, in cabalistic terms we say, um, that Tiferet is about do the right thing cause it’s the right thing to do, period.

345
00:33:51,259 –> 00:33:51,539
Mm-hmm.

346
00:33:51,539 –> 00:33:51,759
Yep.

347
00:33:51,759 –> 00:33:53,339
It doesn’t matter, and that’s the sacrifice.

348
00:33:53,339 –> 00:34:13,79.00000000023283
You don’t know what’s gonna come out of it, you just know it’s the right thing you have to do and it’s not based on, cause the, the kind of 2 counterpoints that are closest, one of them is you do the right thing because you’re kind of feel, uh, beholden to the out- not the outcome necessarily but like these are the rules and these are the rules I need to follow.

349
00:34:13,79.00000000023283 –> 00:34:16,179
And on the other side, I do the right thing for others, right?

350
00:34:16,179 –> 00:34:29,379
Like I do it because they want me to do it or because I, I’m trying to please and once you get to that beautiful, beautiful sacrifice is I just do the right thing because deep inside of me I feel it’s the right thing to do, period.

351
00:34:29,379 –> 00:34:30,319
It doesn’t matter.

352
00:34:30,319 –> 00:34:32,699
It, it could benefit somebody, it could not benefit somebody.

353
00:34:32,699 –> 00:34:34,219
That’s not the point of it.

354
00:34:34,219 –> 00:34:37,259
It could be because there’s a rule that tells me I’m supposed to do it or not.

355
00:34:37,259 –> 00:34:38,279
That’s not the point of it.

356
00:34:38,279 –> 00:34:41,19.00000000023283
I just do it because I know it’s the right thing to do.

357
00:34:41,19.00000000023283 –> 00:34:46,599.0000000002328
And, and I feel like when we get there, it is, like you said, it’s such a libratory, like you feel that liberation.

358
00:34:46,599.0000000002328 –> 00:34:51,839
You feel that, that sense of detachment from the outcome and you realize that that’s what- Mm-hmm.

359
00:34:51,839 –> 00:34:52,799
it’s going to be.

360
00:34:52,799 –> 00:35:07,399
And I’ve just found that I have never been able to understand in all the years I had studied and researched and tried to understand and was on my path and all these things, it was the plants that made this concept sort of grounded this concept inside of me.

361
00:35:07,399 –> 00:35:13,38.99999999953434
Just sitting in a forest, you realize that that has to be the guiding principle that makes all of this work.

362
00:35:13,38.99999999953434 –> 00:35:23,719
Like any ecosystem you sit in that you’re like, okay, there are beings here that are constantly sacrificing themselves in so many different ways and look how beautiful it all looks at the end.

363
00:35:23,719 –> 00:35:25,136
Look how, how it comes out.

364
00:35:25,919 –> 00:35:26,779
oh my goodness.

365
00:35:26,779 –> 00:35:48,419
It’s so, it’s amazing, which I do think is a revolutionary act and I think it is a point of, you know, that, that is something that changes a profound, when you get into that place, it profoundly changes our ability to influence, um, if, for lack of a better term, I’m trying to think of the right words, the future, right?

366
00:35:48,419 –> 00:36:04,083
It is the ultimate active revolution that I do something just cause it’s the right thing to do.Like that is the ultimate revolutionary act, that I know that this is way it’s supposed to go and I am going to do this from a deep down place.

367
00:36:04,083 –> 00:36:24,683
Did you find that your concepts of, for example, working with these 10 plants, especially with a team- with a theme around the apocalypse, right, like the whole concept of where we’re going, how did you find that your definitions, or did they at all change about, around resistance, for example, resilience, around revolution?

368
00:36:24,683 –> 00:36:28,383
Like how, w- what, what came about and where, where were the plants?

369
00:36:28,383 –> 00:36:32,464
How were the plants influencing this, this kind of journey that you were on?

370
00:36:34,946 –> 00:36:36,123
Amazing question.

371
00:36:36,123 –> 00:36:37,744
Um, yes.

372
00:36:37,744 –> 00:36:45,703
I feel like it did change and evolve, um, because the whole thing was a weaving process, right?

373
00:36:45,703 –> 00:36:45,723
Mm-hmm.

374
00:36:45,723 –> 00:36:54,303
Because I’m very stubborn and people have cri- criticisms of being stubborn and it can be good and bad but I think with the stubbornness comes determination, right?

375
00:36:54,303 –> 00:36:55,923
So I was determined.

376
00:36:55,923 –> 00:37:00,183
Once I started this graphic novel approach, determined.

377
00:37:00,183 –> 00:37:10,283
But then I was sitting there with the plants and so for example, every one of the 10 herbs of the apocalypse, I spent as much time possible with them.

378
00:37:10,283 –> 00:37:11,440
So rose is one

379
00:37:12,323 –> 00:37:23,783
I had a rose growing in my yard at the time and I sat with her and meditated and I’m not really, to be totally honest, I’m not that kind of person that, uh-

380
00:37:23,783 –> 00:37:26,423
does actively think about that.

381
00:37:26,423 –> 00:37:33,543
Like this exer- this was an exercise cause I know some of my friends who have gone to herbalist school, they, they have an approach where they do that.

382
00:37:33,543 –> 00:37:39,763
They’ll take it in this form and take it in that form, sit with the plant, you know, have it around them.

383
00:37:39,763 –> 00:37:44,723
Um, and so I was really trying to adopt that, so that was an interesting, uh, shift for me.

384
00:37:44,723 –> 00:37:51,463
Um, but the big message with rose and for me I thought initially, okay, rose has to be there.

385
00:37:51,463 –> 00:37:57,303
I wasn’t really quite sure why just because obviously it’s iconic, it’s been with us throughout time.

386
00:37:57,303 –> 00:38:09,183
But then once I was sitting with her, it was this insight into all of the medicinal properties that this plant holds that most people don’t really think about, right?

387
00:38:09,183 –> 00:38:10,523
Because we just think about- Right.

388
00:38:10,523 –> 00:38:13,443
growing her for beauty, aesthetic, smell, right?

389
00:38:13,443 –> 00:38:14,483
So it was that.

390
00:38:14,483 –> 00:38:21,283
It was like there’s a lot more to me than meets the eye and don’t project upon me.

391
00:38:21,283 –> 00:38:24,763
You know, this is, it, it’s not for your projection.

392
00:38:24,763 –> 00:38:29,743
So kind of there was a lot that I learned actually through sitting with the plants.

393
00:38:29,743 –> 00:38:38,823
Um, and some of them I developed a deeper relationship with in the end after having this experience with them.

394
00:38:38,823 –> 00:38:47,263
Um, and, and writing and rewriting them and, you know, cannabis was one of the plants that I had the longest running connection with.

395
00:38:47,263 –> 00:38:57,283
So but, you know, at the same time she’s such a force to be reckoned with that I felt, uh, very humbled by the experience of trying to write her monologue.

396
00:38:57,283 –> 00:39:01,583
Like what does she actually s- out of all the things she’s going to say, what is she gonna say here?

397
00:39:01,583 –> 00:39:06,423
Um, and so that, even that, you know, I had been with her for a long time.

398
00:39:06,423 –> 00:39:10,143
She’s an instrpen- instrumental part of my life.

399
00:39:10,143 –> 00:39:25,503
Um, it was the cosmic connection, the connection to everything being one and, um, you know, we’re all just floating particles of stardust in an ever expanding universe.

400
00:39:25,503 –> 00:39:27,263
And that oneness- Right.

401
00:39:27,263 –> 00:39:33,083
and the kind of like trying to define me into a drug, it’s not really working out for you.

402
00:39:33,083 –> 00:39:38,448
It’s like the, the breaking of constructs, so I, I wanted to have her set the stage with that.

403
00:39:39,083 –> 00:39:50,483
Um, and then later comes in, uh, nettle and it’s interesting that you do a lot of work with weeds because I think 4, if not more of the herbs of the apocalypse are weeds.

404
00:39:50,483 –> 00:39:53,863.0000000004657
And so I liked her kind of energy which was a dominatrix.

405
00:39:53,863.0000000004657 –> 00:39:57,663
It’s like Mother Nature owns you, not the other way around.

406
00:39:57,663 –> 00:39:57,883
You know?

407
00:39:57,883 –> 00:39:58,823
Right.

408
00:39:58,823 –> 00:40:09,283
Um, and, and I had made mistake, I’d made mistakes with nettles before, like, uh, there’s the process of urtication where you actually hit yourself with stinging nettle to lower inflammation, right?

409
00:40:09,283 –> 00:40:10,503
And I thought great.

410
00:40:10,503 –> 00:40:14,983
And I, I was being foolish one day and I said, Oh, my stomach’s feeling a little bloated.

411
00:40:14,983 –> 00:40:16,043
Let’s see if this works.

412
00:40:16,043 –> 00:40:17,103
And I hit myself- Oh.

413
00:40:17,103 –> 00:40:21,712
with, yeah, and I couldn’t sleep that night cause I had such a bad rash.

414
00:40:23,500 –> 00:40:30,000
Um, and so that’s also- I’m just picturing, I’m just picturing you there going, I’m just gonna try.

415
00:40:30,000 –> 00:40:30,466
Shh.

416
00:40:33,139 –> 00:40:42,500
Yeah, and I think that that’s important to note in this as well is that any time you think you got it figured out, you will be- Mm-hmm.

417
00:40:42,500 –> 00:40:43,619
schooled, you know?

418
00:40:43,619 –> 00:40:44,286
It’s just-

419
00:40:44,979 –> 00:40:56,816
You don’t know anything, and then so that reminder as well, that humility piece of, okay, I thought I knew what was going on and now it just takes this turn.

420
00:40:57,619 –> 00:40:58,479
Um- Right.

421
00:40:58,479 –> 00:41:02,159
and then there are really funny insights I would get randomly.

422
00:41:02,159 –> 00:41:21,359
Like one time, I was having a session with cannabis and I got this image of, in the, in the graphic novel there’s the cannabis goddess who appears at the beginning and she pops back in later on when there’s, um, a concert that’s not supposed to be happening and the cops show up at the concert and the cop says, Who’s got the dope?

423
00:41:21,359 –> 00:41:28,579
And then the cannabis goddess flips them off with her leaf hand.

424
00:41:28,579 –> 00:41:34,420
And it just, it came to me like that, like that’s so silly, but it just was this idea that came, you know?

425
00:41:34,420 –> 00:41:39,619
And so kind of working with that and, and figuring out, okay, this is a silly idea.

426
00:41:39,619 –> 00:41:49,374
I’m gonna integrate that into it, or sometimes you get silly ideas and, or really interesting concepts that you have to edit out, so in the concepts of writing, there’s kill your darlings.

427
00:41:50,179 –> 00:41:58,558
So there were some real darlings that I had to kill, but it’s, it’s just part of it because in the end you connect with what needs to be said.

428
00:41:59,266 –> 00:42:11,319
There’s a certain depth as well, so there’s a depth of things and other people might not pick up on that and that’s okay because they’re, they’re actually gonna be picking up on some things you didn’t even realize as well.

429
00:42:11,319 –> 00:42:12,688
Right, right.

430
00:42:13,599 –> 00:42:26,399
And I, I’m, I’m actually, I’m happy that you’re talking about cannabis in this way because for example, um, I had Sidney Kael on this show and also, uh, her book which is called The Love Language of Plants that she wrote.

431
00:42:26,399 –> 00:42:43,099
She co-wrote with a number of different plants and, uh, we read it as the Plant Wisdom Book Club and in the book club when we read it, we realized that she had called the chapter that she wrote, that she co-wrote with, um, Cannabis, she called it Hemp, and I think it’s Hemp is what she called it.

432
00:42:43,099 –> 00:42:55,599
And that, when we, um, she was actually, I had her on the podcast but I also, she also came to the final, uh, discussion around her book, and we all were, like, asking her, like, Hemp is not the plant.

433
00:42:55,599 –> 00:42:55,919
You know?

434
00:42:55,919 –> 00:43:13,139
She, here, here you are writing about Damiana and all these other, Rose, and all these other beautiful plants that you’ve had these experiences with, and all of a sudden you called it Hemp, and she said that it was because of kind of more pressure from the outside to give a name that’s much more, you know, generic.

435
00:43:13,139 –> 00:43:14,699
And I’m like, Yeah, but that’s not even the plant.

436
00:43:14,699 –> 00:43:20,859
That’s the product that the plant produces, you know, the fabrics and things that it’s gonna get, or other aspects of it.

437
00:43:20,859 –> 00:43:26,559
She’s like, I know, and she’s like, If I, um, in the next edition, that’s gonna be one of the things I’m gonna change and fight for.

438
00:43:26,559 –> 00:43:28,419
And I think that it’s beautiful that you’re

439
00:43:28,419 –> 00:43:49,959
Because I think cannabis is today in society going through this kind of, like, swing where, you know, because of changes in laws, because of changes in things like that, there is, you know, more people that are connecting to cannabis in a way and yet of course we have a lot of, um, superficial use, right?

440
00:43:49,959 –> 00:44:11,859
We have a lot of that aspect, but what I have found in talking to people is that those that give themselves that opportunity to experience allow themselves to enter into a connection with cannabis at a whole different level and how important it is for that process to just unfold in whatever way it’s going to be.

441
00:44:11,859 –> 00:44:33,999
Like, I think we try to judge, and this happens with all kinds of plants, um, whether we’re talking about, you know, ayahuasca or some other kind of plant, and of course there is always even with Dandelion or with, uh, Nettle, there is the opportunity for abuse and misuse and of, like, you’re just missing the point of working with these plants.

442
00:44:33,999 –> 00:44:35,339
That’s always gonna happen.

443
00:44:35,339 –> 00:44:36,799
That’s on the human, right?

444
00:44:36,799 –> 00:44:52,659
It’s the human to understand whether or not they’re, they’re, trying to es- I always say to people the most important thing of whatever, especially because I work with multipotentialites and I work with people who have, like, lots of different passions who jump around from thing to thing to thing, and I’m like, It’s always about the intention.

445
00:44:52,659 –> 00:45:07,439
If your intention is running away, whether it’s working with a plant and your intention is to run away from something or whether you’re, you know, have, following your, your dreams but you’re really running away from other stuff, that running away is never gonna work, and the plants show us that constantly.

446
00:45:07,439 –> 00:45:19,779
They’re sessile, kind- you know, kinda are in place, they can’t run away, and they’re trying to tell us the, the way to resilience and revolution is not running away.

447
00:45:19,779 –> 00:45:19,799
Hmm.

448
00:45:19,799 –> 00:45:25,979
It is dealing with shit, and so if you wanna work with me, you’ve gotta deal with it.

449
00:45:25,979 –> 00:45:27,159
You’ve gotta go through it.

450
00:45:27,159 –> 00:45:33,214
You’ve gotta sit there and experience it and feel it and you can’t run away from it, you know?

451
00:45:34,099 –> 00:45:39,639
Even that nettle, the nettle said that to you most clearly, like, You wanna just fuck around and find out?

452
00:45:39,639 –> 00:45:40,779
Fuck around and find out.

453
00:45:40,779 –> 00:45:41,659
I’m gonna show you.

454
00:45:41,659 –> 00:45:43,839
But you can’t run away from it once you do that.

455
00:45:43,839 –> 00:45:45,119
Now you’ve learned something.

456
00:45:45,119 –> 00:45:45,139
Right.

457
00:45:45,139 –> 00:45:46,160
Where do you wanna go from here?

458
00:45:46,959 –> 00:45:48,112
where do you wanna go from here?

459
00:45:49,139 –> 00:45:49,979
Uh, and that’s really- Exactly.

460
00:45:49,979 –> 00:45:51,379
how nettle is, right?

461
00:45:51,379 –> 00:45:53,119
Let me give it to you straight.

462
00:45:53,119 –> 00:45:56,219
Let me, like, you know, I’m n- I’m not gonna sugarcoat it.

463
00:45:56,219 –> 00:46:02,159
I’m gonna put it into your face, and then after, I’m gonna give you the chance, where do we wanna go from this?

464
00:46:02,159 –> 00:46:14,596
So you can experience everything else, all the soothing that comes, but it, it’s because I’ve given it to you and now you’re gonna sit in it and we’re gonna work through it.Right.

465
00:46:14,596 –> 00:46:21,835
Yeah, it’s such a gift to be able to receive insights from plants and the different kind of personalities they offer, right?

466
00:46:21,835 –> 00:46:25,275
Because there are certain plants that are sort of that tough love.

467
00:46:25,275 –> 00:46:35,336.00000000046566
Some are just so humble and open and giving, and others are kind of like, Hmm, I’m not sure about you.

468
00:46:35,336.00000000046566 –> 00:46:37,575
Yeah, exactly.

469
00:46:37,575 –> 00:46:39,336.00000000046566
That’s so true.

470
00:46:39,336.00000000046566 –> 00:46:42,695
And- and I’m actually curious about this only because you mentioned it.

471
00:46:42,695 –> 00:46:44,375
Um, why

472
00:46:44,375 –> 00:47:01,955
And- and I’m kind of, I have my own theories, but before I go there, uh, in my, in my attempt to be somebody who holds and- and like gives more space um, and like to- to not have my words sort of clutter everything, I’m so curious as to how you ended up with poppy and as- opium poppy, in particular.

473
00:47:01,955 –> 00:47:03,256
Mm-hmm.

474
00:47:03,256 –> 00:47:03,875
Yeah.

475
00:47:03,875 –> 00:47:12,515
Um, that sh- opium poppy was one that came to me right away when I- I created a list and there were some edits and revisions.

476
00:47:12,515 –> 00:47:13,955
Cannabis was on there right away.

477
00:47:13,955 –> 00:47:14,640
Poppy was on there right

478
00:47:15,455 –> 00:47:28,432
So poppy, um, I, the way that that plant has shaped humanity and continues to alter the future of humanity is incredible.

479
00:47:28,975 –> 00:47:43,175
Um, and I think it’s definitely a tool of resistance because if you think about the stigma that this plant has, I mean, and- and then the- the dichotomy and the hypocrisy, right?

480
00:47:43,175 –> 00:47:52,675
Because which what Poppy talks about in monologue is, My seeds are widely available in the supermarket, yet wars are waged over me.

481
00:47:52,675 –> 00:47:54,315
You know, like how can- Mm-hmm.

482
00:47:54,315 –> 00:47:58,535
how can society view a plant in the same way?

483
00:47:58,535 –> 00:48:13,456
And, um, and it’s actually because of the twist of the hand that humans tried to make this plant better, that it became what it is now with the op- opium epidemic.

484
00:48:14,115 –> 00:48:24,975
For example, there was opium, that’s- that’s the resin taken from the head of the flower, and then they made, they’ve discovered morphine was an extract, right?

485
00:48:24,975 –> 00:48:28,304
And so morphine revoli- revolutionized modern medicine.

486
00:48:29,235 –> 00:48:37,375
So even still to this day, if they’re doing any studies on a- a painkilling drug, they measure its effe- efficacy against morphine.

487
00:48:37,375 –> 00:48:38,960
Is it more effective or less effective?

488
00:48:40,135 –> 00:48:46,654.9999999995343
And so then they- they notice, Oh, this is an amazing medicine, but it has the potential for addiction.

489
00:48:46,654.9999999995343 –> 00:48:47,875
What do we do about that?

490
00:48:47,875 –> 00:48:49,104
Let’s make heroin.

491
00:48:49,695 –> 00:48:54,718
And that was created by a pharmaceutical company called Bayer, and we all are familiar with Bayer.

492
00:48:55,415 –> 00:48:55,935
Mm-hmm.

493
00:48:55,935 –> 00:48:57,040
And then it became illegal.

494
00:48:57,615 –> 00:49:10,595.0000000004657
So then since then, I don’t even need to get into the details, but it’s very complicated, but now we have the opium- opioid epidemic in North America, but now it’s spreading to different parts of the world.

495
00:49:10,595.0000000004657 –> 00:49:11,055
Right.

496
00:49:11,055 –> 00:49:16,720
Um, and it’s because we don’t know how to handle plants with power, with great power.

497
00:49:17,575 –> 00:49:18,135
Um- That’s great.

498
00:49:18,135 –> 00:49:39,920
and instead of understanding them, trying to understand, trying to find a way to work with them, it’s stigma, crimin- criminalizing the plant and the people because Afghanistan, you know, one of their ancestral plants is poppy and all the wars that have been waged and continue to be waged because of the war on drugs.

499
00:49:40,695 –> 00:49:48,048
And for me, I wanted to have a plant that represents this senseless act of destruction.

500
00:49:48,595.0000000004657 –> 00:49:52,912
And it’s an a- it’s an attack on nature, not only it’s an attack on people, it’s an attack on nature.

501
00:49:54,075 –> 00:50:02,035
And so that being said, in the end, and what the plant says is like, I’ll still be here once you’re gone.

502
00:50:02,035 –> 00:50:24,840
So, you know, I believe having an 0 there’s, um, lobdemum was a- a tincture extraction in- in the 1800s, 1900s that was made from opium poppy that was available as a pharmaceutical product back before they criminalized poppy and cannabis, um, in the United States and other parts of the world.

503
00:50:24,840 –> 00:50:34,239
So, to have a poppy tincture, an opium poppy tincture on hand i- in the event of the collapse of humanity is gonna be essential.

504
00:50:34,239 –> 00:50:37,296
I mean, it’s one of the strongest painkillers around.

505
00:50:37,899 –> 00:50:55,479
So that’s why I thought this is- it- I don’t wanna say the herb of the apocalypse, but definitely holding down this concept and, and holding this power of death as well, because I think that in the apocalypse, we obviously have to reckon with our relationship to death.

506
00:50:55,479 –> 00:50:58,320
And we’re doing a really bad job of it and poppy shows us that.

507
00:50:58,419 –> 00:51:15,399
You, you know, as you were talking, you brought so- what I love, I love this about these conversations, and I love, um, being able to go into this level of depth is that recently, I’ve been having lots of conversations with different people.

508
00:51:15,399 –> 00:51:43,299
We were just talking about it in the, um, recent iSprout’s, uh, monthly gathering, which is a gathering that, um, it’s kind of our, our gathering that we do every month in the Naturally Conscious community, and in there, we were having a conversation about, um, ancient civilizations, even those that are kind of, to a certain extent, unknown to, um, to humanity today, even from, you know, Atlantean and Mu and all these others.

509
00:51:43,299 –> 00:51:53,539
But, uh, one of the people was talking about the fact that there’s, I guess, a, a writer who talks about an ancient civilization that comes from an alien race, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, reg- regardless of what you mean, what you believe.

510
00:51:53,539 –> 00:52:24,159
But the point that, that was coming up that we were really discussing deeply was that over and over again, humanity is giving, um, given the opportunity to, uh, deal with its own personal level of complexity and development, its emotional intelligence, our ability to deal and wield great power effectively and also in a way that is, I don’t know, for lack of a better term because I don’t think we’ve coined the right term yet because we don’t know how to do it yet, altruistically to a certain extent or,

511
00:52:24,159 –> 00:52:31,120
uh, maybe in a way that’s sacrificial, like in a way of, of selflessly, there’s all these types of words, but I still don’t think we have the ab- uh, right one.

512
00:52:31,659 –> 00:53:02,199
And wh- as you were talking, I was realizing that, yeah, we always say that we blame outwardly the things that we ourselves are- haven’t been able to deal with as human beings, but this one about like you mentioned poppy as well as, um, as cannabis and, and others, holy bejeezus, what a great example of us, of us humans, like, blaming an external force and,

513
00:53:02,199 –> 00:53:14,839
and punishing plants for basically something that we as humans can’t cont- it, it, uh, permit me, I’m, I’m, uh, pretty extreme when I come say certain things and people, you know, whatever, take it or leave it.

514
00:53:14,839 –> 00:53:26,032
Um, it is the equivalent of the burqa that you put on the woman because the man is too weak to control himself in the i- in the vision of beauty of what is a full woman.

515
00:53:26,538.9999999995343 –> 00:53:43,999
And so let’s put a burqa on a woman and cover this woman because I as man can’t control myself, and so therefore she needs to be hidden because, you know, if she- I see her skin, I’m, I’m gonna go crazy and I’m gonna do things and it’s her fault because she is exposing too much of her beauty.

516
00:53:43,999 –> 00:53:52,816
And in some ways, criminalizing cannabis and poppy and, and, you know, coca and all these other plants is the exact same thing.

517
00:53:53,339 –> 00:53:55,119
It’s saying let me

518
00:53:55,119 –> 00:54:17,799
You’re so powerful, like you said, right, we don’t know how to handle plants with great power, so you’re so powerful that I’m gonna bu- throw a blanket over you, I’m gonna put a burqa over you, I’m gonna put a chain over you, and I’m gonna say that, uh, you can’t be let out, even though the weakness is not the plant, it’s me as a human being who can’t control myself.

519
00:54:17,799 –> 00:54:29,439
Yeah, I, I think that there’s this unfortunately innate desire in humanity to understand.

520
00:54:29,439 –> 00:54:35,959
I say unfortunately because it’s great because it brings us about innovation and advancements- Right.

521
00:54:35,959 –> 00:54:36,579
right?

522
00:54:36,579 –> 00:54:44,939
But with that, it’s this need to simplify and distill down to bite-sized pieces that we can comprehend, right?

523
00:54:44,939 –> 00:54:45,499
So- Right.

524
00:54:45,499 –> 00:54:53,099
I think that a lot of plants in their essence are beyond our ability to grasp in a lot of ways.

525
00:54:53,099 –> 00:55:05,419
Like, I am all for plant science and figuring out the ways, mechanics of how plants work and let’s innovate and make some remedies that really help humanity.

526
00:55:05,419 –> 00:55:06,499
All for it.

527
00:55:06,499 –> 00:55:12,784
But at the same time, there’s always going to be ass- aspects of plants that science won’t b- be able to elucidate.

528
00:55:13,379 –> 00:55:14,599
Like the energetics- Absolutely.

529
00:55:14,599 –> 00:55:15,159
of plants.

530
00:55:15,159 –> 00:55:15,859
Impossible.

531
00:55:15,859 –> 00:55:16,879
There’s no way.

532
00:55:16,879 –> 00:55:24,499
I mean, however advanced science gets, I don’t think that there’s any way for them to really be able to wrap their head around that.

533
00:55:24,499 –> 00:55:25,439
And so- Right.

534
00:55:25,439 –> 00:55:34,239
I think it’s important to note, um, that in different cultures, the approaches are completely, uh, vastly different.

535
00:55:34,239 –> 00:55:45,38.99999999953434
So, um, in the global north, it’s this idea of plants being these single solitary things and we need to figure it out and da, da, da, da.

536
00:55:45,38.99999999953434 –> 00:55:48,38.99999999953434
Well, each plant in of itself is a whole world, right?

537
00:55:48,38.99999999953434 –> 00:55:49,419
And so- Right.

538
00:55:49,419 –> 00:56:00,939
i- you know, to be able to wrap your head around that is gonna take devotion, time, and energy, and that’s really not something that the global north is equipped to deal with.

539
00:56:00,939 –> 00:56:05,215
Like time and energy- Exactly.I don’t wanna have to do all the work, right?

540
00:56:05,215 –> 00:56:12,775
But then you have cultures that have carried ancestral wisdom for millennia- Right.

541
00:56:12,775 –> 00:56:14,295
and will continue to do that.

542
00:56:14,295 –> 00:56:15,995
So you brought up coca.

543
00:56:15,995 –> 00:56:28,816
Coca is a plant that’s interwoven into cultures in South America and it’s a great fallacy of the Global North to say, Oh, like, we’re extract

544
00:56:28,816 –> 00:56:30,736
We wanna get rid of that, because that’s

545
00:56:31,476 –> 00:56:48,656
It- it’s essentially degrading their ability to practice their culture and, and, and, and this concept in the Global North as well of, like, take a plant, we take it for medicine, we take it and take, take, take without having any sort of sense of, like, what that means, what our relationship- Right.

546
00:56:48,656 –> 00:56:51,336.00000000046566
is to these, these plants.

547
00:56:51,336.00000000046566 –> 00:57:01,355
So I think that that’s the, the biggest issue is that the, the cultures that are the most disconnected from plants are the ones that are governing international law.

548
00:57:01,355 –> 00:57:01,442
Right.

549
00:57:02,035 –> 00:57:06,224
And so they don’t have the tools to be able to make informed decisions.

550
00:57:07,075 –> 00:57:28,496
So right now, I’m working with a university in Colombia and we’re doing a, um, integral coca leaf monograph that will look at this plant in a scientific light but also in an indigenous light and we’re, we have methodologies that support indigenous ways of sharing information in the stories.

551
00:57:29,195 –> 00:57:42,515
And th- one of the points of this is to help educate policymakers because right now there’s a big push internationally to deschedule coca because right now there are 3 plants that are internationally scheduled.

552
00:57:42,515 –> 00:57:47,408
1, we all talked about them, cannabis, opium poppy, and coca.

553
00:57:48,375 –> 00:57:51,216
So that’s gotta change because-

554
00:57:52,015 –> 00:57:59,615
all these plants are ins- insanely powerful, they’re tools and, uh, allies and kin, they should not be criminalized.

555
00:57:59,615 –> 00:58:04,368
And I think until humanity can stop criminalizing plants, we have work to do.

556
00:58:05,135 –> 00:58:06,295
Absolutely.

557
00:58:06,295 –> 00:58:07,295
Absolutely.

558
00:58:07,295 –> 00:58:08,535
And, and it’s

559
00:58:08,535 –> 00:58:29,795
I- I’m so glad that you brought this up cause this is not a conversation I ho- I- I hold often, and yet it is kind of the underlying perspective because this is the criminalization, like, the outward persecution of these plants and then it trickles down into the way we deal with weeds, the way we look at

560
00:58:29,795 –> 00:58:31,975
You know, and we create these pesticides, the

561
00:58:31,975 –> 00:58:38,000
All, uh, all these other pieces I think are just trickle downs from that 0 from what you just said.

562
00:58:38,575 –> 00:58:47,654.9999999995343
And we have to deal with the fact that we are outwardly punishing what we internally don’t wanna deal with ourselves.

563
00:58:47,654.9999999995343 –> 00:58:47,695
Mm-hmm.

564
00:58:47,695 –> 00:58:51,555
And it goes back to that whole fact of what are the plants trying to teach us?

565
00:58:51,555 –> 00:59:04,755
Be sessile, be present, deal with your shit in the place that you’re in, not just geographically but even emotionally where you are, and stop trying to blame everything outwardly and stop because it doesn’t work.

566
00:59:04,755 –> 00:59:06,075
It doesn’t work, folks.

567
00:59:06,075 –> 00:59:06,992
It doesn’t work.

568
00:59:07,595.0000000004657 –> 00:59:07,715
Mm-hmm.

569
00:59:07,715 –> 00:59:10,495
I- if you don’t deal with it, it’s still gonna continue.

570
00:59:10,495 –> 00:59:17,195
Like, just because you think you can eradicate it physically doesn’t mean that, that everything else is gonna change within you.

571
00:59:17,195 –> 00:59:21,136
You’re just gonna then move that desire over someplace else.

572
00:59:22,175 –> 00:59:23,915
so eventually, what are you gonna do?

573
00:59:23,915 –> 00:59:26,855
End up sitting in a room, like, in

574
00:59:26,855 –> 00:59:31,075
By yourself closed off from everybody else because you haven’t dealt with your stuff?

575
00:59:31,075 –> 00:59:36,675
And so i- it’s like these plants, as you said, they’re super powerful because what they do is throw things in your face.

576
00:59:36,675 –> 00:59:41,680
I say that one of the reasons I love living in community is because you can’t hide from yourself.

577
00:59:42,255 –> 00:59:46,355
You’re, your shit is right there in your face all the time.

578
00:59:46,355 –> 00:59:50,235
And, and this is, I think what people experience when they go off into the woods, right?

579
00:59:50,235 –> 00:59:51,154.99999999953434
They’re not alone.

580
00:59:51,154.99999999953434 –> 00:59:53,715
We keep talking about like, Oh, a person goes off into the woods.

581
00:59:53,715 –> 00:59:54,815
They’re not alone.

582
00:59:54,815 –> 00:59:57,555
The- everything is in their face around them.

583
00:59:57,555 –> 00:59:58,154.99999999953434
Like all- Mm-hmm.

584
00:59:58,154.99999999953434 –> 01:00:04,015
these plants are just constantly throwing everything into their, their view and making them deal with it.

585
01:00:04,015 –> 01:00:15,895
And that’s the reason why people who spend long times in the woods or whatever end up coming back with a sense of peace and of calm and of enlightenment because those plants are helping them work through it.

586
01:00:15,895 –> 01:00:22,255
They are kind of just sitting there and putting everything in front of you and making you deal with everything that you have to experience.

587
01:00:22,255 –> 01:00:22,319.99999999953434
Mm-hmm.

588
01:00:23,475 –> 01:00:23,895
Yeah.

589
01:00:23,895 –> 01:00:24,315
A mirror.

590
01:00:24,315 –> 01:00:24,848
At least that’s how I see it.

591
01:00:25,575 –> 01:00:26,475
Yeah.

592
01:00:26,475 –> 01:00:26,495
Exactly.

593
01:00:26,495 –> 01:00:27,471.99999999953434
They’re

594
01:00:28,418 –> 01:00:28,515
Sara.

595
01:00:28,515 –> 01:00:29,239
Exactly.

596
01:00:29,239 –> 01:00:33,559
So, Sarah, I think, I, you know, as usual, we, we would just keep going and going and going.

597
01:00:33,559 –> 01:00:35,340
There is so much here.

598
01:00:35,340 –> 01:00:39,919
first of all, how do people get the book, Herbs for the Apocalypse, Sarah Russo?

599
01:00:39,919 –> 01:00:41,008
Where do you find your book?

600
01:00:41,520 –> 01:00:42,799
Where do you find this graphic novel?

601
01:00:42,799 –> 01:00:43,739
We want it.

602
01:00:44,899 –> 01:00:45,619
Thanks.

603
01:00:45,619 –> 01:00:51,899
So, um, I decided to make this graphic novel only available in print.

604
01:00:51,899 –> 01:00:54,039
So it’s self-published.

605
01:00:54,039 –> 01:00:55,774
It’s only available in print.

606
01:00:56,360 –> 01:00:59,520
Um, I wanna initially say thank you to all the crowdfunders.

607
01:00:59,520 –> 01:01:02,239
They helped us, um, create it.

608
01:01:02,239 –> 01:01:11,059
Um, and so with that, it can be the version that it needed to be, which is exactly how it is in all of its gritty imperfection.

609
01:01:11,059 –> 01:01:20,379
Um, and so I, we printed 300 copies and they are, there are only at the time of this, uh, 20 left.

610
01:01:20,379 –> 01:01:21,539
So you can go- So get it now.

611
01:01:21,539 –> 01:01:22,179
Get it now.

612
01:01:22,179 –> 01:01:22,768
Get it now.

613
01:01:23,459 –> 01:01:23,799
Yeah.

614
01:01:23,799 –> 01:01:27,696
So you can go to herbsfortheapocalypse.com.

615
01:01:28,619 –> 01:01:29,459
Which I will put into- And-

616
01:01:29,459 –> 01:01:30,559
the show notes.

617
01:01:30,559 –> 01:01:31,219
Yes.

618
01:01:31,219 –> 01:01:34,039
And that’s how you can get it.

619
01:01:34,039 –> 01:01:34,539
You can

620
01:01:34,539 –> 01:01:41,086
And, and if you have any questions, you wanna reach out, you wanna connect, um, if you write the website, you’ll f- you’ll get me.

621
01:01:41,719 –> 01:01:43,839
Um, and re-

622
01:01:43,839 –> 01:01:48,999
Quite, some months ago, we were not really doing social media or anything like that.

623
01:01:48,999 –> 01:01:53,104
Um, so yeah, the best way to get in touch is definitely through the website.

624
01:01:53,899 –> 01:01:54,479
Okay.

625
01:01:54,479 –> 01:01:54,899
Perfect.

626
01:01:54,899 –> 01:01:58,579
We will make sure that we include the links and put it all there.

627
01:01:58,579 –> 01:02:01,239
Sarah, this has been such a fantastic conversation.

628
01:02:01,239 –> 01:02:02,719
Thank you so much.

629
01:02:02,719 –> 01:02:10,759
And to everybody who’s listening, remember, you know, these are the types of conversations we continue to have inside of the Naturally Conscious community.

630
01:02:10,759 –> 01:02:18,899
And also, you know, we have things like the Sprouts Writing and Creativity Book to h- I mean, Creativity Group, not book.

631
01:02:18,899 –> 01:02:22,579
Although maybe now that was just an omen that we should write a book about- Yeah.

632
01:02:22,579 –> 01:02:31,099
this, because co-writing and co-creating with plants really does change the way that you experience that type of practice.

633
01:02:31,099 –> 01:02:36,139
It becomes something more, an expression that is beyond the human world.

634
01:02:36,139 –> 01:02:38,759
So come into the Naturally Conscious community.

635
01:02:38,759 –> 01:02:41,139
Let’s continue these types of conversations.

636
01:02:41,139 –> 01:02:51,440
And let’s experience this co-created world and the resilience and, and, uh, and, and even revolution that comes from a deep connection with otherkin.

637
01:02:51,979 –> 01:02:54,559
Thank you again, Sarah, for being here with us.

638
01:02:54,559 –> 01:02:57,959
And to everybody, thank you for al- you know, listening.

639
01:02:57,959 –> 01:03:05,059
Remember to like, and comment, and hit the subscribe button, you know, all those important things to get this message out to the greater world.

640
01:03:05,059 –> 01:03:08,926
And remember always, resist the urge to hold back your emerging green brilliance.

641
01:03:10,079 –> 01:03:10,799
Thank you.

642
01:03:10,799 –> 01:03:10,864
Bye.

643
01:03:12,538.9999999995343 –> 01:03:15,888
Thanks for tuning in to this episode of Reconnect With Plant Wisdom.

644
01:03:16,386 –> 01:03:26,768
To continue these conversations, join us in the Naturally Conscious community, your premier online ecosystem for plant reawakening and accelerated evolution and co-creation with otherkin.

645
01:03:27,379 –> 01:03:36,784
Here, you’ll find expansive discussions, interactive courses, live events, and supportive group programs like the Plant Wisdom Book Club and the Sprouts Writing and Creativity Group.

646
01:03:37,419 –> 01:03:42,659
Connect with like-minded individuals collaborating with plants to integrate these insights into life.

647
01:03:42,659 –> 01:03:47,799
Intro and outro music by Steve Sciulli and Poinsettia from The Singing Life of Plants.

648
01:03:47,799 –> 01:03:51,399
That’s it for me, Tigrilla Gardenia, and my plant collaborators.

649
01:03:51,399 –> 01:03:55,568
Until next time, remember, resist the urge to hold back your emerging green brilliance.

650
01:03:56,159 –> 01:03:56,899
I’m out.

651
01:03:56,899 –> 01:03:57,419
Bye.